White crested black polish genectics

[luckiestck1]

Hi,
i was wondering if anyone could tell me how the white crest black body genes work in polish chickens? I'm thinking of trying to breed the WCB colour into a different chicken breed and was wondering if these genes work like normal mottling genes and are recessive or a dominant trait. Also is the wcb gene linked to beak/skin colour?

Any help/ advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Rose the Legbar]

@NatJ

 

[NatJ]

Hi,
i was wondering if anyone could tell me how the white crest black body genes work in polish chickens? I'm thinking of trying to breed the WCB colour into a different chicken breed and was wondering if these genes work like normal mottling genes and are recessive or a dominant trait. Also is the wcb gene linked to beak/skin colour?

Any help/ advice is greatly appreciated.

Here is a quote from a thread in 2010:

Given a big enough crest the default color of it will be white. To get a black crest of the same size you have to put in some additional genes.
These are present in lakenvelder for instance. Lakenvelders were used to create the black crested white polish.

If that is correct, you would see white once you have crests that are big enough.

But when I go looking for more recent information, I find this:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/white-crested-black-polish-question.1331480/#post-21743461
(link instead of quote, because it's a bit long.)
That one is from 2019, and the poster thinks the white crest is caused by a particular allele of the mottling gene. (Allele is one form of the gene. Several alleles of the mottling gene have been discovered, with all being recessive to normal not-mottling, but with some having slightly different effects than others.)

If that is correct, I would expect it to be recessive like the other mottling gene alleles. So you would see black crests in the first generation of crossed birds, with the white appearing in crests of some later generation birds (when you cross back to the Polish or breed the crossed birds to each other.)

I do not know what the actual correct answer is, but I respect the genetics knowledge of both of those posters, so I am inclined to think the different answers are because more study happened in the years in between.

As a practical matter, cross the Polish with the other breed (preferably with a black bird of that other breed), then take the mixed chicks and breed some to each other, some back to Polish, and some to the other parent breed. Look at what you get, both crests and other features, and use that to help decide the next stages of your breeding program.

@NatJ

I don't personally know the answer to this one, but I did turn up some quotes from other people that may be helpful.

 

[luckiestck1]

Side Note: I would only be hatching out a small number of chick's for each generation as i have limited space.

Possible breeding options:

Step 1. The polish x Other breed
Step 2. Breed the F1 X F1

Step 3 - The F2's is the point I'm not sure which way to go because I would want more gene diversity but would like to try to cement the WCB gene while still maintaining as healthy a flock as possible. Possible options below.

Option 1 - Breed the F2 x F2 together to cement the WCB gene and but this means they will be very closely related. Then breed the F3's X other breed again to increase genetic diversity and the other breeds traits in them.

or

Option 2 - Breed the F2 X F1 to cement the WCB gene, they will be related closely but not as much as option 1 (I THINK). Then breed the F3's X other breed again to increase genetic diversity and the other breeds traits in them.

or

Option 3 - Breed the F2 X other breed and get chickens with more genetic diversity & the other breeds traits while still carrying the recessive WCB traits for F3. Then breed the F3 X F3 together to get the WCB gene showing again in F4. This would would probably be the best option for diversity but not sure if it would be the best for cementing the WCB gene.

 

[NatJ]

Side Note: I would only be hatching out a small number of chick's for each generation as i have limited space.

Possible breeding options:

Step 1. The polish x Other breed
Step 2. Breed the F1 X F1

Step 3 - The F2's is the point I'm not sure which way to go because I would want more gene diversity but would like to try to cement the WCB gene while still maintaining as healthy a flock as possible. Possible options below.

Option 1 - Breed the F2 x F2 together to cement the WCB gene and but this means they will be very closely related. Then breed the F3's X other breed again to increase genetic diversity and the other breeds traits in them.

or

Option 2 - Breed the F2 X F1 to cement the WCB gene, they will be related closely but not as much as option 1 (I THINK). Then breed the F3's X other breed again to increase genetic diversity and the other breeds traits in them.

or

Option 3 - Breed the F2 X other breed and get chickens with more genetic diversity & the other breeds traits while still carrying the recessive WCB traits for F3. Then breed the F3 X F3 together to get the WCB gene showing again in F4. This would would probably be the best option for diversity but not sure if it would be the best for cementing the WCB gene.

You could try hatching large numbers of F2 chicks, and see if any of them show the correct white crested black appearance. If you can find any like that, cross them back to the other breed, then cross those offspring with each other and hatch large numbers of chicks to try to get some nice ones with white crests and black bodies.

Another way to cement the WCB part is to make your initial cross of Polish x other breed, then breed those chicks back to Polish. Look at the ones that have nice WCB coloring, then from them pick the ones that look most like the breed you are trying to produce. Breed those "best" ones to the other breed, then breed their chicks back to them, then the best offspring back to the other breed...

Either way, I am basically suggesting a two-generation pattern. One generation you cross white crested black (polish or mixes) to the other breed, the next generation you cross those birds with each other or back to white crested black. That's when you pick the best white crested blacks and start the pattern again by crossing to the other breed.

Of course there are other possible breeding patterns, but that is what I would probably try first.

I would also take a good look at your F1 chicks, and see if they show any white in their crest or any color/pattern in their chick down, that might let you recognize they are mixes. If you can spot something, cross an F1 to the other breed, and see if you can spot some chicks that are carrying the right genes to produce the white crest. If you can track the genes when they are just carried, you can keep crossing to the other breed until you get all the other traits right, then cross your carriers to each other to get ones that actually show white crests on black birds. But this whole idea only works if you can see which birds are carrying it. If you were trying to introduce the crest gene (which is dominant), it is pretty easy to see which mixed birds have a crest, so you can keep crossing crested mixes back to the other breed until you've got all the other traits right. It is equally easy to introduce other dominant genes, like pea comb or rose comb or V comb: take a mixed bird that shows the trait, cross to the breed you want to put the trait into. Eventually breed two mixes to get some birds that are pure for the trait you are adding. But if the white crest is actually caused by a recessive gene, and if you cannot spot the carriers, that method won't work (unless you use test-mating to find the carriers: cross each maybe-carrier to a WCB and see if any chicks are WCB. If no, that bird is not really a carrier. If yes, cross that carrier to the breed you want, then raise up those chicks and test-mate them to find carriers to continue the pattern.)

 

[NatJ]

Side Note: I would only be hatching out a small number of chick's for each generation as i have limited space.

Oops, just noticed this. Crossing F1 to each other "should" give about 1 in 4 chicks that show the white crested black color, if there is just one recessive gene involved to cause it. That pretty much calls for hatching large numbers of chicks.

You may be able to recognize the White Crested Blacks at an early age, which would make it possible to hatch large numbers and re-home most of them (without white crests) at a very young age. That calls for a big incubator and a big brooder for a short time, but you don't need to house large numbers of older chicks or adults.

You could do multiple hatches that are the "same" generation (hatch F2s, later hatch more F2s from the same F1 parents, keep doing small batches until you get what you want. Or repeat any other point in the breeding program.)

But if you want the numbers to work more in your favor, do this one:
--first mix produces F1
--F1 back to WCB Polish will hopefully give about 50% chicks with WCB color
--Among the WCB chicks in that hatch, pick the ones most like the breed you want, and breed them to the desired breed again.
--Among those mixes, the one with the best other traits will get bred back to the WCB mixed parent, so you can once again choose a WCB chick (probably half of chicks are WCB) to continue the pattern.

That lets you choose among all chicks in one generation (one parent has white crested black coloring, so all chicks must carry it) and among half of chicks in the other generation (one parent is WCB and the other carries it, so half of chicks show it and the other half carry it. Choose one that shows it.)

 

[luckiestck1]

Oops, just noticed this. Crossing F1 to each other "should" give about 1 in 4 chicks that show the white crested black color, if there is just one recessive gene involved to cause it. That pretty much calls for hatching large numbers of chicks.

You may be able to recognize the White Crested Blacks at an early age, which would make it possible to hatch large numbers and re-home most of them (without white crests) at a very young age. That calls for a big incubator and a big brooder for a short time, but you don't need to house large numbers of older chicks or adults.

You could do multiple hatches that are the "same" generation (hatch F2s, later hatch more F2s from the same F1 parents, keep doing small batches until you get what you want. Or repeat any other point in the breeding program.)

But if you want the numbers to work more in your favor, do this one:
--first mix produces F1
--F1 back to WCB Polish will hopefully give about 50% chicks with WCB color
--Among the WCB chicks in that hatch, pick the ones most like the breed you want, and breed them to the desired breed again.
--Among those mixes, the one with the best other traits will get bred back to the WCB mixed parent, so you can once again choose a WCB chick (probably half of chicks are WCB) to continue the pattern.

That lets you choose among all chicks in one generation (one parent has white crested black coloring, so all chicks must carry it) and among half of chicks in the other generation (one parent is WCB and the other carries it, so half of chicks show it and the other half carry it. Choose one that shows it.)

That's a great plan, but my only hesitations is that the other breed I'm going to use have several traits that are recessive and if i use the polish more then once only 1/4 chicks will carry the desired recessive traits and i cant tell which ones carry them and wouldn't breeding back to the polish increase the polish traits in the F2 gen?

p.s. thank you for all the feedback

 

[NatJ]

That's a great plan, but my only hesitations is that the other breed I'm going to use have several traits that are recessive and if i use the polish more then once only 1/4 chicks will carry the desired recessive traits and i cant tell which ones carry them and wouldn't breeding back to the polish increase the polish traits in the F2 gen?

p.s. thank you for all the feedback

Yes, that is harder.

When you make the first cross, all chicks will be 1/2 Polish and 1/2 other breed, and will carry all the recessive genes from both sides. If you cross those back to Polish, some chicks will show the recessive genes from the Polish side (like White Crested Black color) and some will carry it, about half each way. For the recessive genes from the other side, each one will be carried by about half of chicks and not the other half. So if you pick a chick that shows the White Crested Black color, there is a good chance of it carrying at least some of those other recessive genes. When you breed that chick back to the other breed, you should get some chicks showing any recessive trait that bird is carrying (plus all chicks will carry the recessive gene that we think causes WCB coloring.)

So I think that alternately crossing to the other breed, then back to WCB, then to the other breed, then back to WCB, will eventually get you the other recessive genes too. You will gradually pick them up as you keep breeding back to that breed. After the first backcross to the WCB Polish, all the other crosses would be to the other breed or to WCB mixes, so you won't actually be crossing back to the pure Polish at that point.

 

[NagemTX]

Hi,
i was wondering if anyone could tell me how the white crest black body genes work in polish chickens? I'm thinking of trying to breed the WCB colour into a different chicken breed and was wondering if these genes work like normal mottling genes and are recessive or a dominant trait. Also is the wcb gene linked to beak/skin colour?

Any help/ advice is greatly appreciated.

Take a look here. https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/black-crested-white-polish.1562330/

 

[NatJ]

Take a look here. https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/black-crested-white-polish.1562330/

That thread is talking about Black Crested White.
This thread asked about White Crested Black. Do they come up in that thread too?