Why Do People Buy Live Chicks From Breeders and Farm Stores‭?

[Shadrach]

Instead of a book I think a blog would be more appropriate for you.

I did think about a blog but it would mean more hours in front of the computer.
Before I joined this site, well close to that, I went on the internet about once a month to keep in touch with my daughters and friends.
I don't really like sitting in front of a computer.
When the book is finished I'll see how I feel.

 

[Shadrach]

I notice most your coops don't have much ventilation, doesn't it get hot as hades in the summer where you are?

They have two types of doors, one with a large hardware cloth insert and a winter door which you can see in the pictures. Even without the summer doors there are vents at the top and some have small meshed windows at the bottom.
It does get hot here in the summer 38 centigrade but it cools down rapidly at night.
The chickens only use the coops to sleep and sometimes lay eggs and they go in late dusk and it's a reasonable temperature then.

 

[Cayuga momma]

@ aart, @Donna Worry @1cock2hens
Lovely aren't they.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/some-chicken-photographs.74471/
The point you seem incapable of understanding is I don't have much of a choice about how these chickens are kept. They are not my chickens.
If you had seen what it was like here before then you might think differently, but I doubt it.
Also, the assumption that you have 'own' chickens in order to care about them, or know anything about chicken keeping shows a very limited grasp of reality.
Before I came here on average they lost a chicken a month. Can you get it in to your heads that the people who own the chickens don't care.
They hardly ever got cleaned out. The feed was rotting in the coops and full of rat shit.
They incubated eggs and the chicks died like flies because they didn't understand how coccidia works. Never mind, the horror of the place is way beyond my ability to explain.
So, get all that bile out. It is the Internet after all.
Then, if you want to be at all fair minded go and read some other posts I've made. read some of the stories I've written. Read some of my articles.If you can't manage that then
rant all you want. You have so little understanding of my situation here I can't even begin to take what you write seriously.

I totally get why you are so passionate about those chickens. You found them in a horrible situation and you have put your blood, sweat, and tears into taking care of them for barely any wages.
Please consider that as offended as you are by people making assumptions about your situation, that they may be equally offended by what they perceive as you making assumptions about their situations. They are not any less passionate about their chickens.

Honestly part of me applauds you for your passion and the care you put into those chickens.
The other part is seriously offended by the things you have written in this thread.

I wish you well with your book and your life.

 

[feathermaid]

I have read many of your stories and articles and I find them to be full of wonderful observations and insightful discoveries, the same discoveries many others have made and also consider in their chicken keeping. I also see that you have developed a true fondness for chickens and care deeply for their welfare and I applaud you for trying to make their life better. However, I'm confused by your premise that buying chicks from hatcheries is a horrible practice, and also somewhat offended. But mostly I'm curious.

You do realize the differences in our geography, economies and social structures, yes?
If you owned the chickens you care for outright, what would you do differently?

If you moved to another country and found yourself without chickens (having discovered the joy of being around them)... would you aspire to attain more? How would you get them?
Or would you struggle with your own morality and just decide to forego chicken ownership altogether?

I understand that you want to educate others "that chickens are highly intelligent and social creatures" and "to gently persuade people to reassess their view of the chicken."
Well I think you may be preaching to the choir!

There is a chapter in the book I’m writing about the backyard chicken keeping movement,

Backyard chickens aren't new, they were actually considered a patriotic duty during the first world war.

https://nwedible.com/when-chicken-keeping-was-patriotic/
I think these days, such worldwide consumer-driven societies and readily available disposable "everything" has many city folk are wanting to get back to grass roots simplicity, or at least get a taste (sorry for the pun ) by growing their own gardens, and keeping small livestock animals. A resurgence of the old days, but in modern times.

Most backyard and small flock keepers value their birds beyond what they spent to purchase them.

So true! Their value is exponential... beyond the price of eggs produced in their lifetime or the value of meat if butchered, beyond the nutrient-rich compost they leave behind, countless hours of entertainment, companionship, the lessons they teach and the general enrichment of our lives.

I think comparing hatcheries to illegal trappers is a stretch.
If someone wants chickens and can properly care for them, why shouldn’t they get to have them? More chickens kept by small flock keepers means less eggs purchased from stores which means less battery hens. The more meat chickens raised by individuals and families means less chickens in factory farms. That is an overall positive effect.

@Shadrach have you heard of or seen the conditions of these farms? I think hatcheries are a far cry from the egg and meat industry.

I think this is a very enlightening thread. I’ve learned bunches.

Yes, in many ways!

I'm am truly fascinated in learning about circumstance in other cultures. Further confirming my belief that there is no way everyone can possibly acquire or care for chickens in the same manner... far too many variables. Even when I owned and trained horses, every horse had different quirks and required different approaches to earn mutual trust and build a partnership. And you just can't "know" what they need without observation and a degree of trial and error. Who in this world is born knowing everything?

I agree with you. Unfortunately while such people are learninng, chickens are dying.

But the same was true in your case, until you discovered on your own how to better care for them, which still isn't free of loss. Even when you research first, go to college or whatever, your best knowledge is still gained through tangible experience. After medical school comes internship and residency before becoming a full-fledged physician. Mistakes are made and even human lives are lost in the quest for becoming better caretakers.

 

[feathermaid]

I totally get why you are so passionate about those chickens. You found them in a horrible situation and you have put your blood, sweat, and tears into taking care of them for barely any wages.
Please consider that as offended as you are by people making assumptions about your situation, that they may be equally offended by what they perceive as you making assumptions about their situations. They are not any less passionate about their chickens.

Honestly part of me applauds you for your passion and the care you put into those chickens.
The other part is seriously offended by the things you have written in this thread.

I wish you well with your book and your life.

Well said

 

[Shadrach]

I have read many of your stories and articles and I find them to be full of wonderful observations and insightful discoveries, the same discoveries many others have made and also consider in their chicken keeping. I also see that you have developed a true fondness for chickens and care deeply for their welfare and I applaud you for trying to make their life better. However, I'm confused by your premise that buying chicks from hatcheries is a horrible practice, and also somewhat offended. But mostly I'm curious.

You do realize the differences in our geography, economies and social structures, yes?
If you owned the chickens you care for outright, what would you do differently?

If you moved to another country and found yourself without chickens (having discovered the joy of being around them)... would you aspire to attain more? How would you get them?
Or would you struggle with your own morality and just decide to forego chicken ownership altogether?

I understand that you want to educate others "that chickens are highly intelligent and social creatures" and "to gently persuade people to reassess their view of the chicken."
Well I think you may be preaching to the choir!


Backyard chickens aren't new, they were actually considered a patriotic duty during the first world war.
View attachment 1567181
https://nwedible.com/when-chicken-keeping-was-patriotic/
I think these days, such worldwide consumer-driven societies and readily available disposable "everything" has many city folk are wanting to get back to grass roots simplicity, or at least get a taste (sorry for the pun ) by growing their own gardens, and keeping small livestock animals. A resurgence of the old days, but in modern times.


So true! Their value is exponential... beyond the price of eggs produced in their lifetime or the value of meat if butchered, beyond the nutrient-rich compost they leave behind, countless hours of entertainment, companionship, the lessons they teach and the general enrichment of our lives.


@Shadrach have you heard of or seen the conditions of these farms? I think hatcheries are a far cry from the egg and meat industry.


Yes, in many ways!

I'm am truly fascinated in learning about circumstance in other cultures. Further confirming my belief that there is no way everyone can possibly acquire or care for chickens in the same manner... far too many variables. Even when I owned and trained horses, every horse had different quirks and required different approaches to earn mutual trust and build a partnership. And you just can't "know" what they need without observation and a degree of trial and error. Who in this world is born knowing everything?


But the same was true in your case, until you discovered on your own how to better care for them, which still isn't free of loss. Even when you research first, go to college or whatever, your best knowledge is still gained through tangible experience. After medical school comes internship and residency before becoming a full-fledged physician. Mistakes are made and even human lives are lost in the quest for becoming better caretakers.

Below is an extract from my book. I’ve posted this to try and illustrate the view of animals and chickens in particular, that I was brought up with.

I spent a large portion of my youth on a farm owned by an Uncle. I remember being taken around the farm by the farm manager Mr Young, a taciturn man with a shy smile. on the instructions of my Uncle to be shown where I could and couldn’t play. At each animal enclosure we would stop and I would get my instruction.

There were two large sheds in which battery chickens were housed; the smell and the noise were something to be believed. These sheds were surrounded by rough fields and it was in these fields the free range chickens were kept.

Mr Young and I walked through the fields and he would tell me about the cock fights he had seen and which hen laid the most perfect eggs. I can’t recall how many different groups of chickens there were, maybe four or five, each with a cock and a handful of hens. At each group we would stop and Mr Young would tell me a bit of history about the group members. At one particular group we stopped an unusually long distance away and Mr Young took hold of my ear as he had with many earlier warnings of danger and gave my ear a good twist, saying, ‘don’t you be going near that cock boy, he’s mean and he’ll rake you if so much as look at him sideways. Him and me have an arrangement and I’ll get his hens eggs if I’m quick but he don’t take to no strangers.’

Frankly, I had no intention of going anywhere near the cocks in the fields. I had seen them fighting and this particular cock looked as mean and proud as they come.

I asked Mr Young why there were some chickens kept in the sheds and others in the fields.
‘Them hens in that shed ain’t proper chickens boy’ is the answer I got and there was no further elaboration. I watched Mr Young collect the eggs from the free range chickens some days and for a large man he was surprisingly nimble and the mean cock and he were equally wary of each other.

Between the chickens sheds and the river that run through the farm, effectively dividing it in half, the pigs and mink were kept. The pig sty's were occupied by sows kept for breeding. They were built with reinforced concrete, each one having a small run and an enclosed shelter. The doors to each space were constructed from three inch planking with steel sheeting covering both sides. I had watched on a few occasions the farm hands with Mr Young taking the lead removing the piglets from the sows. It took three burly men to handle this task. As soon as the door to the run was approached the sow would appear at the enclosure door; to me then, she looked enormous, dirty and smelly with the meanest eyes that stared at you filled with malice. Nobody opened the gate, all three men stood on the wall at the front of the run and Mr young would jump down into the run. The second Mr Young’s feet touched the ground the sow charged. The speed she managed to attain over such a short distance was astonishing and the shudder as the sow hammered into the steel clad gate as Mr Young leapt to one side could be felt through the concrete wall. This was the moment, and the two men on the wall dived onto the sow who twisted and squealed between their legs as Mr young ran into the enclosure and hurried back out with an arm full of piglets. As Mr Young and I stood at the pig styies my ear got a particularly hard twist and he leant over me, his face a few inches from mine and said ‘don’t you ever go in them stys boy, not even at feeding time. Them sows will knock you down and trample you to death and then eat you for dinner’.

I’ve kept the memory of those days for fifty something years and I left my childhood, and Mr Young, with some distinct memories; Mr Young liked twisting ears to make his point, he loved his free range chickens and respected the cocks and accepted that animals will defend their young, social group and families and that as a farmer it was his responsibility to ensure he didn’t get injured dealing with them.

I think these days, such worldwide consumer-driven societies and readily available disposable "everything" has many city folk are wanting to get back to grass roots simplicity, or at least get a taste (sorry for the pun ) by growing their own gardens, and keeping small livestock animals. A resurgence of the old days, but in modern times.

This is how I was brought up to view domesticated animals. For me, this is the old way of animal husbandry and I have to some extent replicated it where I live now.

If it isn’t clear from the story, all animals on the farm were considered potentially dangerous and to be treated with the utmost respect and caution. In the case of this farm, had the owners and the farm hands taken the attitude I often read on these forums regard animal aggression, which is to kill any animal that shows aggression to humans, this particular farm would have gone out of business within the first few weeks.

To further illustrate my point, this thread, and in agreement of my view, the post from Bee, has other contributors to the thread advocating killing a rooster because in their view it is behaving ‘badly’.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-them.1127902/
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-to-handle-them.1127902/page-29#post-18000406

Kill the rooster because you want to eat it by all means but to kill it because you can’t control it is, well, words fail me. It certainly isn’t farming as I know it, nor does it show a great love and respect for the species in general. It is not surprising that Bee no longer posts here.

The kill the rooster posts are not in general from people new to chicken keeping and on a steep learning curve, these are established member with badges and status.
It would seem that not everyone in the choir is singing from the same hymn-book.
Perhaps, if I were particularly sensitive I would find the kill the rooster posts offensive.

If the forum does want the choir singing a particular hymn then I have misinterpreted the rules and the stated inclusive intent. I thought all views and all opinions were welcome provided they stayed within the set of guidelines. I can’t find any rule that states you must fully support backyard chicken keeping. I must assume my post is acceptable to the people who own the forum and regulate its content.

I’ve looked back on the posts I’ve made in this thread and I can’t find anything that I would describe as offensive. There seems to be some fundamental difference underlying those who are offended by what I’ve written and those that just don’t agree, or don’t like my tone, that I am not entirely clear about. It may be a cultural thing. It may stem from some religious conviction.
So I don’t agree that I am preaching to the choir.

You do realize the differences in our geography, economies and social structures, yes?
If you owned the chickens you care for outright, what would you do differently?

I realise there is a difference in our geography, I’m not sure what differences there are in our economic structure, or our social structure. There are cultural differences (I should point out I’m British). Spain is a European industrialised nation. I don’t understand the point you are making here .

I can’t undo what has been done so it’s a question of what I can do to make the best of the circumstances, unless I was prepared to kill all the chickens which I’m not. This is their home for better or worse and they are used to the freedom they have.

If I lived here and I was restricted to the current chicken population as in number and breed, I would probably set up a number of safe zones. Because the chickens here are distinct groups and because of the topography and the chickens day to day foraging and roaming habits a single large safety zone isn’t an option. The specific groups don’t get on well enough to live together. They will peacefully exist together in general if they have the space and resources. During their rest periods they tend to have favourite group locations. While these locations are not predator proof, they are excellent choices, well hidden from hawks with multiple escape routes from ground predators. The chickens usually get taken by predators when they go to lay eggs away from the coops and when moving from one safe zone to another.

There is a fence type called stock net (you would have to look it up if your interested) that is made from wire and has graduated hole sizes from bottom to top. The bottom hole are an easy fit for a chicken but an attacking hawk wouldn’t get through. The construction is basically a large circle a yard and a half in diameter with a solid roof. They are once the fence is trimmed about three feet tall. These are securely staked to the ground by driving three pointed fence posts into the ground around the fence perimeter and attaching the fence shelter to the posts. I would place these at the known hawk strike points and in the open areas. Such things are not aesthetically pleasing and the owners wouldn’t allow them.

A dog that lived here when this place was still a working farm with the previous owners wouldn’t move with the owners and eventually was accepted by the current owners. She knew every boundary, every person who was allowed to cross it. She was in reality the only functioning brain here. She was a proper farm dog.
At a later date she had pups which the current owners drowned. Shortly after drowning these pups they went and bought two pointer puppies.

I would have let her keep and train her pups and later, I would have trained them further to guard the chickens and other livestock. The two dogs here that the current owners bought as pups are sofa dogs, largely untrained and generally useless. I did manage to part train one of these dogs during a period when the owners were away for long periods of time, but it met with some disapproval and the dogs are kept in the house now when the owners are here.

It would take three dogs to adequately protect the acreage here that is used by the chickens and Muscovy ducks. The sheep and donkeys don’t have quite the same predator problem.

Given the choice I would the two sheep dogs a local shepherd has offered me and train them to guard chickens instead. They are already chicken friendly and the transition from sheep to chickens seems feasible.

The situation for the chickens here is at the moment almost tolerable. Normally I am outside, this spat of internet activity is temporary and my normal presence outside is some predator deterrent. The living arrangements for the chickens which they have chosen, within some limits (I don’t let them roost in the trees anymore, or hatch eggs in the open) are acceptable now.

Each group has at least one rooster and the groups have established their routines and hierarchies.
I give each hen that wants to sit and hatch that opportunity at least once. Those that make good mothers and whose chicks learn good survival instincts I have let sit more than once.
If I owned the land and the chickens I would build more coops and let the population expand.
With each generation now the survival rate of the chicks has improved slightly but the long term survival of those chicks that reach adulthood has greatly improved.

If there were only one group and I had the funds I would turn the vegetable garden and rockery into a run appprox 600 sq yards which encompasses trees and shrubs and would also encompass two of the preferred cover spots of the chickens. The open areas I could make hawk difficult; it’s hard to explain without going into details, and the run would prevent the hens wandering into unsafe areas when the wanted to nest.

At the moment the four groups roam over 4 acres but each group concentrates in about a quarter of an acre so a 600 sq yard run wouldn’t be much of a restriction on their natural roaming. Unfortunately there is only one area where such a run could be built at a reasonable cost. This area is shown in my coops page in the picture with the bantam group by a coop. There is good visibility for the chickens in three directions. No chicken has been attacked by a hawk in this area since I’ve been here. There was a perfet opportunity to build such a run a couple of years ago. An industrial unit was being demolished and it had a 7 foot tall anti climb fence around it that was going to get scrapped. Some new posts would have been necessary but many had been dug out intact. I could probably have bought this at scrap metal price….very cheap.

If you moved to another country and found yourself without chickens (having discovered the joy of being around them)... would you aspire to attain more? How would you get them?
Or would you struggle with your own morality and just decide to forego chicken ownership altogether?

I would cheat. I wouldn’t own chickens in any circumstances I am realistically likely to find myself in if I move from here. I have never bought, or sold, any live animal in my life. I have given some chickens away to local homes where I believe they will have a life comparable to here. I have killed those that I do not have the ability to keep and eaten them, and those that were too sick, or badly injured to survive here.

If I do move from here, which is a possibility given the Brexit situation I would find the nearest rescue centre and go and offer my services there on a voluntary basis.
Given large funding, I would open a chicken rescue centre of my own.

I’ve seen that poster before and know the ‘a car in every driveway and a chicken in every pot’ quote. My mother was American and I’ve been to America and many other counties.

I have been to a number of intensive chicken factories. The sheds mentioned above at my Uncles farm were an early example.

I’ve never been to a hatchery and my original objection to them still stands. I can’t see them any differently to the intensive factory units. Here, as I’ve mentioned before should the entire chicken population die, I could start a new flock of the local breed without going anywhere near a hatchery, or a breeder.

My old days are briefly outlined above. I think the attitude has changed. I’ve read quite a few posts here that do reflect the ‘old way’ of doing things as I understand them but they are by no means the majority.

But the same was true in your case, until you discovered on your own how to better care for them, which still isn't free of loss. Even when you research first, go to college or whatever, your best knowledge is still gained through tangible experience. After medical school comes internship and residency before becoming a full-fledged physician. Mistakes are made and even human lives are lost in the quest for becoming better caretakers.

At some point all chickens are going to die. It’s what happens to them between life and death that I’m mostly concerned about. You can’t prevent deaths, even with coops and runs. For some time you might thwart the predator and one day something may get left open, or a smarter predator finds a way into the run and coop and chickens die. In the few weeks I’ve been on this forum there have been posts that confirm this. Some people have better protected systems than others but the risk is always there.

Yes there is a learning curve but much as I love the chickens here they are not pets and I expect some to die just as one must with any other creature. A death a month on average was for me intolerable; not because a chicken had died but because it had needlessly died because of neglect and indifference. If I can keep the death rate to two or three a year and still give them virtually unlimited freedom, the chance to breed naturally and rear their own young, provide clean secure night-time accommodation, tend the sick and injured, to me this is acceptable in a dynamic population. I understand many people view their chickens more as pets but even if I took this view I would not wish to keep any creature in a cage if it was at all possible to avoid it.

I don’t think the current recommended 10 sq feet per chicken is anything like large enough. If that is all I could manage then I wouldn’t keep chickens. If I lived in a flat I wouldn’t keep a dog.
Not everyone has the same view.

My elder sister keeps chickens. She lives in an urban area. She has a back yard. It’s not large, maybe a quarter of an acre. Her chickens are free range. She keeps four hens. She is very fortunate in having virtually no predators. The garden (back yard) is securely fenced. She’s kept chickens this way for over twenty years. She doesn’t have a rooster. Last year her eldest hen died of old age at 16 years old. This year her next eldest died at 14 years old I think. I write this because it is possible to free range chickens in a backyard and keep them safe in the right circumstances.

One of the last fences I erected before I left the UK was for a couple who wanted to free range chickens in their ‘back yard’. I erected an anti climb panel fence with a dug in ground skirt on a three quarter acre plot if my memory serves me. They already had a well trained dog and didn’t bring any chickens to their property until the project was completed. It was quite an expensive fence. They had already arranged with a local farmer to take the next pair from a broody hen at six weeks old and start a small flock this way.

I hope I’ve managed to answer your questions without causing any further offence and helped you understand my views. I really don’t know what more I can do. People have differing views and I’ve had plenty of comments condemning my free range system and I’m not offended in the slightest.

I try to explain my position and view to those who are prepared to listen but as is so often mentioned, we all keep chickens differently and as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, if I had a choice I wouldn’t keep chickens here at all in these circumstances.

 

[Molpet]

Kill the rooster because you want to eat it by all means but to kill it because you can’t control it is, well, words fail me. It certainly isn’t farming as I know it, nor does it show a great love and respect for the species in general.

Aggression can be hereditary, breed the best and eat the rest.
Bee raises chickens for food.

 

[No More Empty Nest]

I've read your stories and enjoyed them a lot.
I am 64.
This thread has been very interesting. I've been occasionally annoyed by what you've written and occasionally annoyed by the people answering you; have agreed with you sometimes and agreed with opposing views sometimes. All in all a thought provoking thread.
In the end, we all do our best with what we've got, people have different reasons for raising chickens and different environments with different laws in which to do so.

 

[Kiki]

I've read your stories and enjoyed them a lot.
I am 64.
This thread has been very interesting. I've been occasionally annoyed by what you've written and occasionally annoyed by the people answering you; have agreed with you sometimes and agreed with opposing views sometimes. All in all a thought provoking thread.
In the end, we all do our best with what we've got, people have different reasons for raising chickens and different environments with different laws in which to do so.

This! X2

 

[feathermaid]

I've read your stories and enjoyed them a lot.
...
This thread has been very interesting. I've been occasionally annoyed by what you've written and occasionally annoyed by the people answering you; have agreed with you sometimes and agreed with opposing views sometimes. All in all a thought provoking thread.
In the end, we all do our best with what we've got, people have different reasons for raising chickens and different environments with different laws in which to do so.

X3 That's totally what I meant to say.

I'm actually kind of annoyed by own comments