Why do some flocks get coccidiosis and others don't if it's everywhere

[centrarchid]

so I am back to square one. I suppose the easiest way absent an analysis of my soil at a laboratory is to just medicate and hope that my past practice of keeping a clean coop has kept the cocci to a minimum or prevented it from being present. This seems the lowest risk of having to treat young birds with large doses of medication vs the somewhat minimal risk of stunted development based on all the thousands of people who use medicated with no problems. If nothing else it will let me sleep better. ;-)

I wonder if there is a good comparison of chicks growth or health progress from day one to sixteen weeks between medicated vs non medicated where all other factors are equal. That would be very telling.

If birds not challenged by cocci, then economics alone would dictate not using the medicated version. The medicated versions I can get cost about 10% more than diets not medicated. I have used medicated feed as a sole feed from hatch to about 3 months because it was a use it or loose it deal. The birds seemed to do alright.

 

[Folly's place]

I've just changed my avatar! My first chicks were raised here by broody hens, without medicated feed, and without problems. Since then, I have both broody raised and brooder raised chicks, and no episode of coccidiosis. That's why I haven't fed medicated chick starter. If I move to a new place, my plan may change. Mary

 

[Folly's place]

Several times I've split a chick order with a friend; she feeds medicated starter, and I don't. The birds show no differences!!! Mary

 

[casportpony]

To be clear I meant should I feed a non medicated feed which does not contain Amprolium which blocks thiamine, a needed nutrient for brain,and growth developement or a medicated feed which is incomplete by definition since it deprives the bird of the vitamin (thiamine) which cocci need to reproduce in the chicks gut? I'm not clear on how birds can take this medication every day for up to 16 weeks of the most formitive period of their lives and not be negatively effected.

Clearly a feed medicated with amprolium does not block all thiamine or pathology labs across the US would see thousands of chicks with thiamine deficiencies.

 

[Scotty from BI]

Thanks Mary, that is reassuring and influences my decision to start them on medicated and just put coccidiosis back to a low place on the list of concerns. Since I have your attention here, I would like to ask a question on a different subject. With my previous flocks I always threw large quantities of grit and calcium flakes out onto the soil to give them access in what I thought was a more natural way. I did not think that I would be placing a replacement flock out on the same soil before all the calcium flakes were gone. But now When the young birds go out to the run there will be a lot of oyster shell in the soil. Will they just ignore it since they will not be close to laying or might this be a problem. I am aware of the problems of too much calcium in young chickens. Thanks

 

[Folly's place]

Don't worry about it! I feed oyster shell in a separate feeder, so I'm sure there's always some out there for the hens. I'm all about making things easier for me!!! Your chicks should be fine, and I would think that the oyster shell will have dissolved over time in the rain, anyway. Think about limestone soils; nobody's chickens are falling apart there from calcium overload. Mary

 

[TwoCrows]

Chicks will only eat whatever amount of calcium needed if it is free choice. So by you casting calcium grit out into the yard won't cause any issues. I would however put your calcium in a tub and keep it out of the rain and other environmental things.

 

[casportpony]

There are many many people who have feed medicated feed starting on day one and have had chicks come down with Coccidiosis.
Do not rely on the feed to prevent Coccidiosis.
ALSO...while feeding med feed, if you offer "extra" vitamins you may cancel out the med in the feed all together.
You can read about this here:
http://www.armchairpatriot.com/Home-Vet/Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook [Desk Ed.] 6th ed. - D. Plumb (Blackwell, 2008) WW.pdf

Page 62
Pharmacology/Actions section states:

EXCESSIVE thiamine in a diet can reduce or REVERSE the anticoccidial activity of the drug.

Quite right! And contrary to popular belief, amprolium does *not* treat all strains of coccidia.

 

[triplepurpose]

why do some people get colds and flus all the time and others don't if the viral vectors are everywhere?

answer: a functional, healthy immune system.

coccidia are endemic to chickens and their environment, and they are largely resistant to them--heck, it may even have some symbiotic role we don't even know about yet (perhaps by excercising and training the immune system or some other function we can't even conceive)! Healthy chickens usually handle it (unless you manage to make it too difficult for them somehow); unhealthy chickens or those kept inappropriately often don't. i believe Joel Salatin likes to remind himself, "It's the management, stupid". (clarification, im not calling anyone names here, please, just sharing a funny and hopefully insightful anecdote!)

Using medicated feed is often to mess with the delicate balance in a system nature has already mostly sorted out--tho unusual circumstances occasionally may justify it, it is folly to consider as a routine or "normal" practice.

My experience as a farmer has shown me time and time again how the worst management problems tend to arise from human meddling with processes and functions we don't adequately understand, rather than from the biology itself.

This is not a call to negligence, but rather an earnest reminder to make very sure something is actually broken--and that you are certain exactly WHAT is broken!--before you wade in to "fix" it!

 

[centrarchid]

Care must be taken not to scare persons from using a medication in the proper context because "it might not work". That may be direction that discussion is evolving towards.

Use it properly. Most of the time it does work. Mitigating stress can be an option, but with some genetic combinations of bird and cocci you will be seeing very high mortality rate without treatment.