Why is there such a bias against hatcheries?

[call ducks]

Another reason to buy from a breeder is to support local farms. Also it is unlikely that a hatchery will have rare breeds, although some will try to sell a breed as rare when it is not really rare anymore. By definition most rare breeds are not good layers.

It's funny that you should say that because it is not rarity that makes them bad egg layers but how they have been bred that leads to both raitity and poor egg laying

Two years ago, I went with Roshester Hatchery and at first all seemed great. But their egg production and egg quality just wasn't good enough for me. I wasn't pleased at all.

Now all hatchery's are different but personally, I am going to stick to breeders from now on. Hatchery stock lines, or at least the ones around here, just don't seem to be what I want, considering I breed and sell and show.

Of course everyone is fully entitled to their own opinions. That is just my take on hatchery's.

Rochesters hatchery -- I can't say I would ever recommend them.

My mentor out in BC has started a hatchery - I can tell you she has some of the most productive birds that could be found. She went and met with the 'father' of modern poultry breeding. She learned a lot and her birds represent that. Hatcheries are the perfect place for people who want good quality birds. But you can define quality in many ways.

 

[DCchicken]

It's funny that you should say that because it is not rarity that makes them bad egg layers but how they have been bred that leads to both raitity and poor egg laying 

As someone that breeds 12 different rare breeds, my experience shows a different result. If all rare breeds could produce 300 eggs per yer, they would not be rare very long. People usually breed rare breeds to improve the breed itself and preserve the best qualities of the breed. Hatcheries breed simply to increase profit. For example, I am breeding Ayam Cemani to a line with all black. I will exchange chicks with other Cemani breeders to improve the breed and preserve the genetics of the breed. Once we have stabilized the breed, productivity will be addressed. If I were a hatchery, I would want to improve productivity first so I could sell more Cemani. Improving the quality if the breed would be secondary to profit, if I were a hatchery. But as I stated before, with rare breeds, I usually have multiple lines...one with excellent quality, one with regular quality but better productivity.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: You don't see a problem with maintaining two lines?

They will only produce 300 eggs a year if they are bred to. But Ayam Cemani being basically a slightly improved village chicken, you will need a good hand and very experienced poultryman/poultrywomen from decades gone past to improve them to that point.

I have raised close to ~20 breeds with 15 or so being rare and with one their is only one purebred line in the world. It is how they are bred that makes them rare. Newly imported breeds can hardly be considered globally.

When I worked with Hungarian Yellows, I did everything wrong - in methodology but had the right idea - produce lots and lots of offspring and cull hard... Mind you lots for me was 100. But in reality I should have actually been producing thousands of hungarian yellows to restore them.

What is happening with the newly imported breeds is called the extension path... A lot of small populations with little genetic diversity no matter how many chicks are produced their will never be a thriving genetically stable population. The only reason why legbars are as stable as they are is because multiple importations have been done. There are two routes a species new to an area can take the extinctionmodel and invasive species model. Newly imported breeds to be successful should follow the invasive species model where lots of offspring are produced and nature culls very very hard meaning that only the best of the best get to pass their genetics onto the next generation. This model also assumes that their is sufficient genetic diversity in the parent generation. When only one importation breeds happens and presumably with birds that are already closely related these newly imported breeds that are being bred in such small numbers will not be genetically strong for long.

 

[DCchicken]

You don't see a problem with maintaining two lines?

They will only produce 300 eggs a year if they are bred to. But Ayam Cemani being basically a slightly improved village chicken, you will need a good hand and very experienced poultryman/poultrywomen from decades gone past to improve them to that point.

I have raised close to ~20 breeds with 15 or so being rare and with one their is only one purebred line in the world. It is how they are bred that makes them rare. Newly imported breeds can hardly be considered globally.

When I worked with Hungarian Yellows, I did everything wrong - in methodology but had the right idea - produce lots and lots of offspring and cull hard... Mind you lots for me was 100. But in reality I should have actually been producing thousands of hungarian yellows to restore them.

What is happening with the newly imported breeds is called the extension path... A lot of small populations with little genetic diversity no matter how many chicks are produced their will never be a thriving genetically stable population. The only reason why legbars are as stable as they are is because multiple importations have been done. There are two routes a species new to an area can take the extinctionmodel and invasive species model. Newly imported breeds to be successful should follow the invasive species model where lots of offspring are produced and nature culls very very hard meaning that only the best of the best get to pass their genetics onto the next generation. This model also assumes that their is sufficient genetic diversity in the parent generation. When only one importation breeds happens and presumably with birds that are already closely related these newly imported breeds that are being bred in such small numbers will not be genetically strong for long.

I am not sure where you are getting your information about imported breeds like Cemani, but there are currently 3 known lines with a possible fourth line. The Cemani are just one example of rare breeds. Many rare breeds are rare not because of how they are bred, but because they have low hatch rates. Take for example, Isbars. Isbars have a history of being difficult to hatch in large numbers. Low hatch numbers will make a breed rare. Why would a profit motivated entity like a hatchery bother with a rare breed? They would not, unless they could cross the breed to another breed to improve productivity.

Also do not make the assumption that there are not multiple imports of some of the rare breeds. Many breeder such as myself are in the process (or already have) imported different lines of many of the same breeds. Many breeders have not announced that they have imported a rare breed, but that does not mean that there are not multiple lines. Greenfire is not the only farm in the U.S. that can import rare breeds. As I stated before, many breeders such as myself are more interested in improving the breed, not making it an alternative to a production hybrid.

As a Cream Legbar breeder, I would not call them stable. Their genetics are very complex. Issues continue to crop up even with those of us that have all 3 of Greenfire's lines. I do find it interesting that a hatchery will be charging more for Cream Legbars than the original importer. But then again, that reinforces the idea that hatcheries are motivated by profit.

 

[call ducks]

Poor breeding causing them to be rare. Low hatch rates are caused by inbreeding depression which is caused by poor breeding methods!

Isbars have a low hatch rate because of the way they are bred you are starting to see the effects of breeding small groups of birds closely together.

When people order from hatcheries they get super strong, and healthy chicks because of the way they breed, as long as you order from the right hatchery.


Also how do you know you are importing different lines? Honestly these new breeds are one import until proven otherwise... Because there is nothing that makes me think that more lines have been imported. And if you import lines from the breeds that a so rare globally chances are they are related.

Hatcheries are motivated by profits and business that is not motivated by profits is no longer in business.

Hatcheries are the best place you can buy productive stock. You can improve these ‘rare’ breeds with the correct breeding methods... You need to produce hundreds (not a few hundred but 500+) chicks select the best and follow the invasive species method of breeding!

 

[DCchicken]

Poor breeding causing them to be rare. Low hatch rates are caused by inbreeding depression which is caused by poor breeding methods!

Isbars have a low hatch rate because of the way they are bred you are starting to see the effects of breeding small groups of birds closely together.

When people order from hatcheries they get super strong, and healthy chicks because of the way they breed, as long as you order from the right hatchery.


Also how do you know you are importing different lines? Honestly these new breeds are one import until proven otherwise... Because there is nothing that makes me think that more lines have been imported. And if you import lines from the breeds that a so rare globally chances are they are related.

Hatcheries are motivated by profits and business that is not motivated by profits is no longer in business.

Hatcheries are the best place you can buy productive stock. You can improve these ‘rare’ breeds with the correct breeding methods... You need to produce hundreds (not a few hundred but 500+) chicks select the best and follow the invasive species method of breeding!

You have no proof that breeders are using poor breeding methods. You are just stating your opinion. I also have not seen any proof that hatcheries provide super-strong, healthy chicks. In my personal experience ordering from a large hatchery in Ohio, my chicks were in poor shape when they arrived and with obvious defects that a breeder would have culled. But that is just my experience. Other hatcheries might be better.

I actually do my research with regards to imported lines. For the Cemani, there are 3 know lines (Greenfire Farms, Toni-Marie Astin, and Cemani Farms).

1. Greenfire Farms will release their Cemani sometime in 2014.
2.. Toni-Marie Astin's line is currently in the care of a group of breeders (Tina Sutton, Randy Hall, Cliff Simmons, myself, and another lady that will remain anonymous until she decides to announce herself). In addition, a trio of Toni-Marie Astin's line was auctioned off on Rarebreedauctions.com recently.
3. The line from Cemani Farms is in the hands of several breeders, the most well known one is Watson Ridge Ranch in Texas.
4. There is also a possible fourth line with a gentleman in New York that imported them in 1995. However he has kept his flock private until now and did not hold on to the importation papers from such a long time ago. This does not mean that his flock is not Cemani. It is just that we cannot trace back the origins of his line like we can with the other 3 lines.

The point of this whole conversation is that there are differences between hatcheries and breeders. In my experience, hatcheries are motivated by selling as many chicks as possible and as cheap as possible. It does not mean that they are producing healthier chicks, but ones that can reproduce at a higher rate. While there are some bad breeders out there, most are more interested in improving their line. Many of them give away their culls for free. If you really want to save some money, contact a local breeder and ask them if they have any free "less than perfect" chicks. These chicks that do not make the cut for breeding programs will make wonderful pets and may actually be high quality, just not up to the breeder's own personal standards.

 

[call ducks]

Meyer's hacthery has some of the best RIR, you will find that resemble the true old, old style RIR. Not these Show quaility ones we have today. They also have some of the best stock in a few other breeds because they obtain their hatching eggs from Amish Poultrymen.

You can tell when poultry is bred correctly and incorrectly. Because when bred correctly (no matter how many were imported) you never see low hatch rates.

 

[DCchicken]

Meyer's hacthery has some of the best RIR, you will find that resemble the true old, old style RIR. Not these Show quaility ones we have today. They also have some of the best stock in a few other breeds because they obtain their hatching eggs from Amish Poultrymen.

You can tell when poultry is bred correctly and incorrectly. Because when bred correctly (no matter how many were imported) you never see low hatch rates.

I am glad that you had a good experience with Meyers. My experience was poor. Quality control was lacking with my shipment from Meyers. It is possible that it was just my one shipment, but I would personally never purchase from them again.

Low hatch rates can occur regardless of how they are bred. Some breeds such as English Orps may have low fertility because of excess feathers around the vent. That does not mean that the breeder is breading wrong. The breeder may just not want to trim the feathers. Some breeds are just more vulnerable to hatching conditions than other breeds. With respect to the Isbars, the breed was never completed by Silverdudd. So it is possible that an experienced breeder may have to complete the breed before it will result in higher hatch rates.

I just don't understand why people would want to make every breed as productive as hybrid Leghorns. If you want chickens that pump out as many eggs as chickenly possible, go with a commercial hybrid from a hatchery. Personally my birds are chosen for health, beauty, and friendly attitude towards other birds in the flock.

 

[chicksurreal]

We had a very positive experience with Murray. They shipped on schedule and all of the chicks were healthy when they arrived. They're almost 4 months old now and we're very happy with them. Based on the only experience I've had with them, I will be purchasing more from them next year.

We're very new to chicken keeping and I have a lot to learn about the various aspects of it all, but I do think there is a place for hatcheries with standards and ethics.

 

[Bullitt]

I am glad that you had a good experience with Meyers. My experience was poor. Quality control was lacking with my shipment from Meyers. It is possible that it was just my one shipment, but I would personally never purchase from them again.

I agree that all breeds are not meant to lay like commercial Leghorns. But there is a difference between wanting a hen to lay say 200 eggs a year and 300 eggs a year.

With shipping chicks there is always a danger. They can get too hot, too cold, get thrown around, and all these things can kill the chicks. This can happen with any hatchery. I do not know what happened in your particular case.

I can understand why someone would want to purchase locally to avoid those dangers. But the majority of chicks from hatcheries are delivered safely.