Why soaking in TricideNeo might not be enough to save your chicken

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by CleoneCluck, Apr 10, 2016.

  1. CleoneCluck

    CleoneCluck Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 23, 2015
    This is a link to Hanover Koi Farms: please read the article on treating a koi before adding to this thread:

    http://jnfkoifarms.com/symptomsofkoi/koiulcertreatments.html

    credit to whoever wrote that article, thank you -- i am encouraged again.

    bumblefoot is awful, it is sad and wishing doesn't make it go away.

    if you've tried the surgical procedure, congratulations if you succeeded curing your patient.

    if you tried and it didn't work, and you wonder why it didn't, perhaps the problem is: we didn't go far enough.

    maybe i haven't gone far enough to save my chicken(s).

    i'm simply saying: soaking may be a big waste of time for the birds and us.

    if you've gotten as far as surgically removing the plug, digging out gunk and soaking with only minimal change after 14 days,
    maybe it's time to take it a step further.

    i know i'm ready to tale it further.

    i'm thinking the cure might be the paste as described by the koi doctor, applying it into the wound to stop regenerating the infection (read the article/ see the pictures).

    reasoning:
    soaking works for koi with exterior ulcerated skin = different.
    the paste works for koi with gouges or cuts which are incisions in the skin = not so different

    if you've been where i am and tried packing the wound with the paste and it worked, write a response please!

    again, here's the link to the article describing the TricideNeo paste for your convenience:
    http://jnfkoifarms.com/symptomsofkoi/koiulcertreatments.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  2. CleoneCluck

    CleoneCluck Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Wednesday, April 13th, 2016

    i made a paste as described by the koi "doctor";
    the paste consists of denture powder (cellulose gum, salt(s), etc., flavor) --- a local drugstore had a popular brand --
    Tricide Neo crystals,Triple antibiotic ointment in a petroleum base;
    also, i purchased the store brand of Liquid Skin;

    i used a small amount of the Tricide Neo (unmeasured by weight, but a very small scoop of crystals -- i measured two scoops with a small bone marrow curette);
    a dab of the ointment, enough denture powder to bind it all together, and a few drops of distilled water because the cellulose gum doesn't activate in oil;
    i reasoned the Tricide Neo crystals would dissolve more slowly in the oil base and the moistness of the wound itself would further dissolve it;

    proceedings:
    • paw soaked for 10 minute soak in Epsom Salt water, 1c ES to 1 qt water : hen freestanding in a shallow planter pan;
    • wrapped the hen with a towel to lay her on her side;
    • debrided the wound/abcess -- not deeply but enough to get it to drain and create a slight "cup" which would hold the antibiotic paste;
    • 10 minute soak in Tricide solution which helped further loosen and float out infection
    • dried the hen's paw focusing on the wound; allowed short time for further drainage which stopped prior to packing the antibiotic "gum" into the wound;
    • sprayed liquid skin product over the wound, allowed time for it to dry before repeating once more (so, two applications of liquid skin product);


    report:

    first impression this morning is that the size of the abcess has decreased by half as observed from the topside of the hen's paw;
    in its most swollen state (so far), the abcess makes it appear as if the hen is standing on a ball; the webbing between the digits on either side of the middle or longest digit being swollen or puffy; today, this is only about half the size;
    will report further after an investigation of the hen's paw;
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  3. CleoneCluck

    CleoneCluck Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Thursday April 14th, 2016

    Report:

    i noticed this morning while getting the hens out into the yard that my caged patient's paw was less swollen after yesterday's treatment;
    i brought her in this afternoon for a closer inspection and this is what i observed:

    • the wound is scabbed over again but different than before: how different? under magnification, the surface of the scab looks like cauliflower (no offense intended);

    this prompted me to prepare a treatment; i followed the procedure as described previously, beginning to end, but with one difference; this time, instead of simply soaking her foot in the TricideNeo, i used a soft toothbrush to debride the wound with the solution; this "opened up the cauliflower" and allowed for a deeper penetration of the solution; the hen remained calm throughout the time it took to accomplish this;

    under magnification, it appears that the chicken's body response / immune system is trying to push it out of its paw like our human body would a splinter with this exception:
    imagine getting a splinter in your palm or sole of your foot and from the point it entered, it starts growing a tree into your hand or foot; yeah, not nice at all, no;

    the substance of the infection looks fibrous, bundled and branched; it is tough to slice through; it can be separated from the healthy tissue surrounding it but the healthy tissue becomes swollen / inflamed as the infection grows into the soft places and pushes inward; i think this is why "the plug" or "kernel" has a little blood in it -- the fibers wrap around these little pockets of capillaries;



    anecdotal note: if you see a lot of blood, you may have cut something important -- so be careful and may the force be with you!
    my observation about bleeding is: capillary bleeding stops pretty quickly on its own if the bird is on the healthier side of its life;
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  4. CleoneCluck

    CleoneCluck Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Saturday, April 16, 2016

    Report

    The wound today is about the same as it was on Thursday; there is inflammation again today; I repeated the procedures / treatment as described in previous post(s);

    Today's procedure convinced me that i am not using the right instruments to accomplish a thorough job of removing all the infection;
    forceps would be of a much better tool for pulling out the splinters of the infection than tweezers -- the substance refered to as "cheese" by
    others who have performed this surgery is slippery and tough as in hard and fibrous; i don't like using a scalpel to "dig around" -- too easy to slip and cut the wrong thing;

    i would like to hear from anyone who has used a curette (a sharp edged scoop-like instrument) and can cofirm that it does in fact slice cleanly through
    the infected tissue mass; curettes comes in different sizes, none i've researched are inexpensive; however, as i'm commiting myself to
    mastering this surgical procedure, the investment in the right tools is of great importance;

    On Thursday, i made a batch of the Tricide-Neo "gum"; the portion i did not use i kept in the refrigerator, wrapped in plastic film; it was in fine condition
    to use today and saved me the time of mixing it; this batch has a somewhat softer consistency and i've nicknamed it "bumble-snot" --

    the liquid skin spray is working fine as a fixative to keep the "bumble-snot" where it needs to be which is in the wound;
    my thought on it is that the brush-on liquid skin might be more accurate or neat; the spray works well enough, the overspray doesn't seem to be a problem but there is definitely overspray; it dries in a minute, too;
     
  5. CleoneCluck

    CleoneCluck Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Monday, April 18, 2016

    Report:

    Repeated the procedure yesterday, Sunday Apr 17; drained the wound and picked out more waxy splinters;
    Even under magnification, it is hard to see exactly what the infection is; what it looks like --
    my best guess at this point is that the chicken's immune system encapsulates the bacteria; this is occurring in the capillaries which then become "clogged" and inflame / swell which makes for the appearance as a cauliflower -- lots of little buds, each with the hard, waxy splinter in it;

    instruments i'm considering ordering:
    • micro scissors to snip out the infected tubes/capillaries;
    • a curette

    note: problem with curettes is the HUGE selection available, HUGE cost -- and of course, sizes are given in metric (we Americans just have to accept this as a global standard and assimilate it the best we can, i reckon)

    Overall, yesterday's procedures went well and full recovery may be only weeks away . . .
     
  6. PertyGertie

    PertyGertie Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jul 10, 2014
    Southwest Michigan
    How is your battle with Bumblefoot coming?
     

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