Young (3-4 months old) roo fading away :( Update - no cocci found, but fading continues...

[Dudu]

Thank you so much for the replies.... Chick1043, I am really sorry...

Suzie, we are far from doing everything right, we have a LOT to learn and we've seen enough problems indeed, but these truly mysterious cases drive me crazy - I so wish God would at least send me a hint of what I'm dealing with, cos the vets are at a loss too. Lenny does live with his brother and sister (or used to until this morning because I left him alone as he got up way too weak and was losing balance), but he might be bored still, who knows.... They have to live in my spare bathroom (it does have a window) for now because we don't want to risk taking them to our farm at the moment. He is missing out on sunshine for sure, but the other two seem to be not affected (thank God).... This morning he woke up very weak, but still completely conscious, just he couldn't join his brother and sister anymore to scratch... I was sure he'd be gone by the time I come from work, but right now I came in (it's around 8 pm here) and he shocked me by coming out from under the bed, walking.... He is looking for things to eat and I am giving him everything imaginable - this morning his crop was full after the night so I thought the digestion had shut down on him, but he left lots of poop in the spare bedroom where he was all day,and the crop is full again right now (albeit kind of mushy, the way it was this morning), so I guess something is still working... I desperately wish I know what to pour into him or what nutrients to give him to pull him out of this, but he's been having live yogurt, grit, pellets, yolk for canaries (the powdery thing), cooked eggs, oat flakes, avian enzyme for digestion, and none of it has helped him so far to begin to recover.

Could I have just a silly request to pray for him, as nothing else seems to be working anyway, but he's still with us?

 

[Suzie]

Yes of course! Prayers are with you and him for his full recovery, describing his crop - have you given him any ACV yet?

As his crop was full have you considered treating him for sour or impacted crop??? There is a "Sticky" at the top of the page describing both of these... maybe look up the symptoms and hopefully God willing he will fit the description of either of those symptoms and you can treat him accordingly.

I am so desperate to try and help you both out here - I have been thinking of little else today than you and your sick Roo... as you say... while there is life...

Suzie

 

[Dudu]

Thanks for the prayers... a lot!

Today he did the same way, he is still picking food, I gave him ACV in water and live yogurt in the morning (water with ACV stayed in their room all day) and yogurt tonight (+ Flagyl for the possible protozoa continues morning and evening). His crop felt hard when I came from work, not mushy anymore. I am going to give him more liquid (my partner brought protein powder that is added to yogurts etc, dissolving it in water and going to give it to him, is that a good idea? I so hope....). Last night I woke up and massaged his crop gently a few times, by the morning it did get smaller but didn't empty completely. He continues to put out perfect poop.... How I wish I knew what else to give or do for him, but that remains hidden from me, so for now just loads of TLC, keeping him warm during the night, and during the way he was back today with his brother and sister.

Thanks so much again for the support, I am 1000% sure that the prayers for Lenny are not in vain.

Here is him back in September, talking with my Tilly.

 

[Suzie]

OK - so here goes... I am contacting somebody who has a wealth of knowledge about chickens - he may be able to throw some light into why your Roo is acting this way.... I will pm him now!

Suzie

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Thanks for the prayers... a lot!

Today he did the same way, he is still picking food, I gave him ACV in water and live yogurt in the morning (water with ACV stayed in their room all day) and yogurt tonight (+ Flagyl for the possible protozoa continues morning and evening). His crop felt hard when I came from work, not mushy anymore. I am going to give him more liquid (my partner brought protein powder that is added to yogurts etc, dissolving it in water and going to give it to him, is that a good idea? I so hope....). Last night I woke up and massaged his crop gently a few times, by the morning it did get smaller but didn't empty completely. He continues to put out perfect poop.... How I wish I knew what else to give or do for him, but that remains hidden from me, so for now just loads of TLC, keeping him warm during the night, and during the way he was back today with his brother and sister.

Thanks so much again for the support, I am 1000% sure that the prayers for Lenny are not in vain.

Here is him back in September, talking with my Tilly.

Hi .. and, got my screen blurry, just readin' through this one. Startin' w/ the most important thing, and that's the fact that God, in His wisdom, has created the individual chicken to be fragile and temporary by His very design, so that flocks of 'em can be more resilient, and most easily adapt to their environments. Long-term flock-wide diseases take their greatest toll on those that are tryin' to correct the problems, and ... just heart-breaking. So, yes, I've said a prayer for them as well, but mostly for you, so that your faith isn't challenged too greatly by His will, for He chose which is to survive, and which isn't, long before these birds ever came to be ... either way, it's among His endless miracles.

OK, ok ... on to the chickens:

Parasites abound, and they're different for different species, but also to different locations. I suspect you might be dealing w/ helminths that ain't w/in the list your chosen meds can defeat. Or, as is being proven of repeated uses of Ivermectin (most esp. if used for external parasites), your bird's worms have learned to live just fine w/ the active ingredients. I'll see if I can find out those worms specific to your location, and somethin' they ain't so used to.

Another thing that sometimes happens, when infestations are most severe, is that the wormer works so well and quickly as to cause blockages, or a rush of protiens that they can't handle (due to absorbing the nutrients provided by the digestion of the worms themselves). And, this could be something entirely different ... they might be relatively parasite-free, which would be good to know, but doesn't seem likely unless necropsy is performed -- float tests of dropping can find worms, but they can't prove definitively that they're not present w/in the bird.

Start, immediately, giving them apple cider vinegar in their water at the rate of four teaspoons to the gallon (but, never in galvanized metal containers). This will help them in many ways, but most importantly by helping them clear out any excess mucus or other coatings from inside, so as to improve uptake of the nutrients/vitamins, and any medications offered. It may not otherwise appear to help, but it most certainly can't hurt 'em in the slightest.

Now, for the longer list of possible causes:

Emaciation ... Off-feed; nutritional deficiencies; lymphoid leukosis; enteritis; gizzard impaction; tuberculosis; unknown
Stunted, uneven growth ... Gizzard impaction; bluecomb disease; alfatoxin poisoning; synovitis; contaminated hatching egg.

I hate seein' that 'unknown' thrown in there, despite the fact that you shouldn't feel so badly for not knowin' what the problem is ... it's vets that wrote these documents, and they can't always come up w/ the actual causes either.

So, you begin by ruling out what you can. And, then? As odd as it may sound, skip right past those causes for which there is no treatment/cure ... can't help 'em if that's the case, but you sure might be able to if it ain't. So, presume that it's somethin' you can try 'n do somethin' about.

Start w/ the water, to be sure it's not the source of toxins. Check their feed, to be certain it hasn't been recalled, and look for any signs of spoilage, or infestation. Look around to be sure they're not gettin' into any decaying matter, or the maggots that feed on it, as the toxins produced by botulism are among the most poisonous known to man. Study 'em for any other symptom ... anything that doesn't look quite right. And, while you're doin' that? I go 'n see what I can find out, 'n get back to ya as soon as I come up w/ somethin' more useful for you to read ~'-)

 

[Dudu]

Suzie, thanks so much!!!

Cowcreekgeek, wow..... thank you.... I am going to look into each of these separately, and yes, he's already on ACV for a few days, I'll just make sure I'll give it to him with a syringe also.

Thanks for ALL of your words and prayers and thoughts, and thanks for the reminder that it's not me who ultimately decides whether someone has to live or not. However, I still want to try and do my part, and all the info you posted does help.

As for deworming, I wonder if I should try Levomisol? It is different than Ivermectin but I am not 100% sure what worms they are supposed to kill... They were both highly recommended by our vet as some of the best (as compared e.g. to Piperazine which they didn't deem so efficient).

 

[aggiemae]

Please take a poop sample to the vet and check for worms before you treat as sometimes over reacting and treating for everything can backfire. BTW you only need a small splash of ACV in your waterer, if you can smell it it's to much.

 

[Suzie]

Well Levamisole is effective against:

Lungworms, Roundworms, Hookworms, Nodular Worms and Stomach Worms according to the info. I read about it on the internet, however it does not treat Tapeworms, Flatworms nor Flukes.

I was prescribed Oxfendazole for my chickens by my Vet - this also treats for tapeworm too.

I am sure that Cowcreekgeek can advise you as to the best wormer to use - your Roo is fragile at the moment and it may be a good idea to wait for now as he will be weak from whatever it is that is wrong with his health and to worm now may weaken him further - this is unknown territory for me - I will leave you in the capable hands of expert advice where the worming issue is of an urgent nature or not.

Prayers are with you!

Suzie

p.s. I am following all/any progress for you and Lenny!

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Suzie, thanks so much!!!

Cowcreekgeek, wow..... thank you.... I am going to look into each of these separately, and yes, he's already on ACV for a few days, I'll just make sure I'll give it to him with a syringe also.

Thanks for ALL of your words and prayers and thoughts, and thanks for the reminder that it's not me who ultimately decides whether someone has to live or not. However, I still want to try and do my part, and all the info you posted does help.

As for deworming, I wonder if I should try Levomisol? It is different than Ivermectin but I am not 100% sure what worms they are supposed to kill... They were both highly recommended by our vet as some of the best (as compared e.g. to Piperazine which they didn't deem so efficient).

That's one of the things I've been researching ... don't wish to alarm you, but your island has a great deal of potential parasites, and I'm finding very little study as to which protozoa could also have these potential results w/in poultry, or of the potential helminths specific to your region. Albendazole continues to pop up as the treatment for most infections w/in humans there, and has proven to be both safe and effective for use in poultry, despite lacking the approval of the FDA for this purpose, which is the primary reason you see so few suggestions to incorporate dewormer into their feed.

Table of Common Helminths from the Merck Vet Manual​

As you can see from this table, there are many, and they're not always gonna show up in the standard tests Vets perform -- they can only confirm their presence if the evidence is contained w/in the poop they test. >>peck here<< for an excellent page on intestinal parasites.

Suzy brought up some excellent points ... you're gonna wanna treat specifically for tapeworms, which Lavamisole doesn't. Ivermectin doesn't either, and Piperazine have been so widely used, and frequently under-dosed (as has Ivermectin), that worms are often resistant. Albendazole seems the better choice, as it's proven effective, and to have no reported negative effects. The vets that prepped the above page suggest Valbazen (Albendazole) Suspension And, I have seen efficacy studies that prove the higher dosage is req'd to take out most nearly all of the adult tapeworms.

I'll paste a list of five alternatives that vets are allowed to prescribe for extralabel use, including the Suzy's Oxfendazole, and I'll post additional informations about whichever treatment, if any, that you choose to try ... ultimately, the decision for how to treat your birds remains squarely upon your own shoulders, where it belongs -- refusing my suggestions won't offend me one bit, 'cause these chickens are yours; not mine, or anybody else's ~'-)

1. Tramisol

(Active ingredient: Levamisole hydrochloride) - Schering Plough.
Soluble Drench Powder approved in sheep, cattle, and pigs. Withdrawal for cattle is 48 hrs
pre-slaughter, 72 hrs pre-slaughter for sheep and 72 hrs for pigs. Levamisole will not settle out in
medication lines. Chicken and turkey dose is 16 mg active levamisole per pound of body weight
delivered by proportioner over 3-4 hours as a bolus for capillaria and cecal worms in pullets and
hens. There is no effect on hatch, egg production, feed conversion, or body weight when used at 8
and 16 mg/pound of body weight dose. However, in the chicken, at 36 mg/pound, water intake is
reduced, at 288 mg/pound, diarrhea occurs, and at 900 mg/pound, 20% mortality occurred. Egg
residue clearance time is not known. For roundworms in broilers/pullets, the dose is 8 mg of active
levamisole per pound of body weight. This is given as a bolus over 3-4 hours. Tissue withdrawal
times and egg withdrawal times must be extrapolated and extended for safety based on data from
approved food animal clearances (3,4,5,6,7,8).
2. Valbazen

Oral Suspension (Active ingredient: Albendazole) - Pfizer Animal Health
Albendazole has been reported to be effective in the treatment of capillaria, ascaridia, heterakis, and
tape worms in chickens. It has been labeled only for cattle and sheep. There is no poultry data
available. Settling in drinker lines has not been reported as has been seen with other anthelmentics in
this class. Cattle require a 7 day withdrawal and sheep require a 7 day withdrawal pre-slaughter.
There is no available data on tissue or egg clearance time in poultry. There have been no reported
negative effects on the performance of broilers, pullets and hens. Valbazen is supplied in 500 ml,
1 liter, and 5 liter bottles of an 11.36% suspension. In chickens, the reported dose is 10 mg/kg of body
weight (personal communication).
The cattle dose is 1 liter of Valbazen 11.36% Suspension per 500 lb as an oral bolus via dosing gun
or dose syringe. (4.54 mg albendazole/lb, 10 mg/kg). Sheep dose is 1 liter of Valbazen 11.36%
Suspension per 664 animals weighing 50 lbs each (3.4 albendazole/lb, 7.5 mg/kg).
3. Synanthic

Bovine Dewormer Suspension, (Active ingredient, 22.5%: Oxfendazole) -
Fort Dodge Animal Health
Synanthic is reported to be effective for capillaria, ascarids, and heterakis. Synanthic does have
activity against cattle tape worms, however, there is no data whether it will work against poultry
tapeworms.
There is 225 mg oxfendazole per ml and it is supplied in a 500 ml bottle for cattle. The
withdrawal time is 7 days for cattle. There is no tissue-clearance data available for poultry, nor any
data available on side-effects in poultry. The cattle dose is 2.05 mg/pound of body weight
(4.5 mg/kg B.W.). There is also a 9.06% suspension available in a 1 liter bottle (90.6 mg/ml of
oxfendazole). Settling out in water lines without agitation can be a problem (personal
communication).
4. Safe-guard (Active ingredient: 10% suspension, Fenbendazole) - Beef and dairy cattle,
oral parasiticide - Hoechst-Roussel
Effective against capillaria, round, and cecal worms in chickens (not approved in chickens). It is
approved for turkeys as a feed additive, 20% premix type A and B, 16ppm (14.6 gm/ton complete
feed for 6 consecutive days) for control of adult and larvae round worms and cecal worms.
The cattle dose is 2.3 mg/pound BW (5 mg/kg BW) as an oral bolus. Beef cattle withdrawal is
8 days following the last treatment. For dairy cattle, there is no milk withdrawal time. Safe-guard
is supplied in 1 liter and 1 gallon bottles. There may be a problem with settling out in drinker lines
without agitation (personal experience).
5. Ivermectin (1% injectable for cattle)
Since Ivermectin went off-patent, there are several manufacturers producing it. Ivermectin has been
used orally via extra-label scripts to treat Northern Fowl Mite and capillaria infestations. Only mites
that are on the birds are killed. The 1% injectable cattle formulation has been used as follows
(personal communication):
• 1 ml of 1% Ivermectin injectible + 1 ml. propylene glycol + 2 gal H2O, proportion at 1
oz./gal D.W.
• Administer 2 times, 10-14 days apart. There is a 30 day withdrawal (destroy commercial
eggs for 30 days post-therapy.)

 

[Dudu]

Quote:

Please take a poop sample to the vet and check for worms before you treat as sometimes over reacting and treating for everything can backfire. BTW you only need a small splash of ACV in your waterer, if you can smell it it's to much.

I took a sample to the vet's already, it came back absolutely clear. However, before with another bird the sample was clear too and a week later I found worms in it when she pooped.

Thanks, I was wondering that about ACV, I will adjust the dose (though I try not to overdose it and I taste it so it tastes only like water before I give it).