BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

No, not "but what ever". That was kinda disingenuous, callducks. How would you like it if someone offhandedly dismissed you that way?
I really appreciate everything George has shared on this list and have learned a lot from it. I sure hope he comes back to share more.
I can tell folk all about breeding dogs, but not poultry. I need this instruction to learn. Please, let's not put roadblocks in the middle of the road
because that's where Bob Blosi said we should be. Go slow, down the middle of the road and KISS.
Best Regards,
Karen

I'm sure George is far too self assured to let something so trivial keep him from sharing his thought with those of us who really appreciate them. I rarely comment on his posts but I read every one of them and I am frequently enlightened. Never too old to learn and...never too young to learn contrition.

 

[hellbender]

Ohh I get that fine. I also know that growth stops after a point. I never said it was a straight line did I? I have seen using MY lines that selecting growth rates later ON in the growth is *Better* for my breeding programs and what I am breeding for. I have been breeding chicks for more than 3/4 of my life.

But what ever....

That would be twelve very youthful years? Glad to have youngsters here too but the experience garnered with age and maturity somehow trumps youthful exuberance.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Really you think I am 12? Experience is experience - age does not matter in this day and age or for this generation. Clearly it matters to previous generations. Some of the youngest people have done some the greatest things. AGE does not matter - your remark that age matters shows me just how much the world has changed and how I think of you really. Age and Education does not trump one or the other no matter how old one is. And just because one is older does not make them any more mature. You don't know me. Just because one is older does not mean they know more about breeding livestock, breeding for farms, or what farms need.

Judging someone by their age is an ARCHAIC thing to do in this day and age. Poultry people need to do everyone a favour and step out of the 1700's and into the 21's century. My "youthful exuberance" is more than most "farmers" these days, and I am sure more than most people on this site. I have a profitable farm, that is not small.

Yall need to get off your high horses and realize Age has nothing to do with anything these days and that real experience no matter how long you have been doing it well always be better than old people that have been doing it for a short time.

 

[hellbender]

Really you think I am 12? Experience is experience - age does not matter in this day and age or for this generation. Clearly it matters to previous generations. Some of the youngest people have done some the greatest things. AGE does not matter - your remark that age matters shows me just how much the world has changed and how I think of you really. Age and Education does not trump one or the other no matter how old one is. And just because one is older does not make them any more mature. You don't know me. Just because one is older does not mean they know more about breeding livestock, breeding for farms, or what farms need.

Judging someone by their age is an ARCHAIC thing to do in this day and age. Poultry people need to do everyone a favour and step out of the 1700's and into the 21's century. My "youthful exuberance" is more than most "farmers" these days, and I am sure more than most people on this site. I have a profitable farm, that is not small.

Yall need to get off your high horses and realize Age has nothing to do with anything these days and that real experience no matter how long you have been doing it well always be better than old people that have been doing it for a short time.

No...I think you're 16...12 years of youthful experience.

 

[RedRidge]

Wow. .. me thinks tho doth protest too much. ;-) lighten up folks. ..

My great grandfather at 97 has and will ALWAYS earn the respect of experience through years.
Because the frontal lobe of the brain does not fully develop until 23, youngsters need to learn to respect that experience even if their experience includes 100% of their life.
So i personally may politely "listen" to that youthful exuberance but I will never call it experience. For those under 23, trust m, your life "experience" had not yet begun.

Now. .. Some where in between we have way too many people who could use a good balance of both experience and exuberance. From my experience. .. Pun intended. .. experience is only something you acquire when you no longer need it and is something only flaunted by those who really need it.

So... Since I am neither old enough to be experienced and past the point of exuberance I will use my infinite wisdom to suggest not taking the written word personally and being so defensive.
And remember...it's much easier to learn when we listen than when we give our opinion. ;-) and as my great grandpa loves to say, "the day you quit learning is the day you die". Wise, wise man!

 

[southernmomma]

Link to a simple growth curve chart.

http://www.avianaquamiser.com/20110724chickengrowthrates.jpg

Does not take long to figure out when the best time to process them is (speaking of economy), and where you want them at that point. It is not just how big the get ultimately, but also what their fleshing is like towards the top of the curve.

I think this is really interesting.
Now, I've seen mention of pushing chicks to see how fast and well they flesh out....at least I think that was the term. I also get the impression that having them flesh out ahead of their structural growth, while doing wonders for the dinner table, is ultimately not especially conducive to long-term health. So if you're pushing your crop of chicks and selecting for weight/age, because you want to eat them, how do you keep the ones you want as breeders healthy? Would you, at the point where their gains slow, make a final selection and put them on a more sustainable ration?

M

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Interesting.

I looked at the growth chart and as a numbers person -- some one who sees the world in numerical relationships-- this growth curve is a bit deceiving. I makes it look like the bird is loosing weight, when it is not; the amt of weight it puts on a day peaked and leveled off. THe bird is still growing. IMO how a bird grows out should reflect the food stuffs available in the environment he was asked to perform in. A cornish cross was asked to grow at lightning speed because every cent of commercial pelleted grain could be the difference between profit and loss. I can't help think that we who have a few acres, can provide grasses and some grainplants, or legumes, or peas, or grasshoppers, etc, that can be converted from plant and insects to a protein I can eat. I am not eating a grasshopper any time soon!! How a bird grows ( growth cirve) should reflect the feed stuffs available and the unique management style of a homestead for some of us. (Irealize everyone here has a little different management betweent hese 2 extremes)

Quote: George-- I think sometimes a person just needs a little time to think it over.

Quote: A pig can get sunburned if they are of the pink skinned types. Too bad Rudy would not like a mud bath . . .

The what ever was more like a "I am done here" - forums or the users have been frustrating me for a multitude of reasons. I am especially fed up with communication

Communicating is hard at any time-- even harder when we cannot see facial expressions and bodylanguage to give clues and cues. I take breaks from a coule forums when I can't handle them-- a time out that I value and do for me, then I can jump in when I am recharged.

Quote: Really you think I am 12? Experience is experience - age does not matter in this day and age or for this generation. Clearly it matters to previous generations. Some of the youngest people have done some the greatest things. AGE does not matter - your remark that age matters shows me just how much the world has changed and how I think of you really. Age and Education does not trump one or the other no matter how old one is. And just because one is older does not make them any more mature. You don't know me. Just because one is older does not mean they know more about breeding livestock, breeding for farms, or what farms need.

Judging someone by their age is an ARCHAIC thing to do in this day and age. Poultry people need to do everyone a favour and step out of the 1700's and into the 21's century. My "youthful exuberance" is more than most "farmers" these days, and I am sure more than most people on this site. I have a profitable farm, that is not small.

Yall need to get off your high horses and realize Age has nothing to do with anything these days and that real experience no matter how long you have been doing it well always be better than old people that have been doing it for a short time.
Call DUcks-- I assure you , you will remember this conversation in about 25 years and have a very different perspective . . . . YOu aren't there yet, so you can't see it yet. I appreciate your view point, as I have tween boys, and I assure you Hellbender understands because his boy has matured to 25. I remember being 25 and thinking I understood the world--- at 50+ I look back and wonder "what the h---- was I thinking!" Please, give the elders their due-- they have earned it. You don't have to agree, but to speak peacefully would be greatly appreciated. You have accomplished far more than most young people at your age, however, you are acting like a bull in a china shop. We appreciate you enough to tell you so. A little tact goes a long way. ANd I'll tell you what I tell myself when I get my dander up-- take a deep breathe and relax, it is not personal.

Wow. .. me thinks tho doth protest too much. ;-) lighten up folks. ..

My great grandfather at 97 has and will ALWAYS earn the respect of experience through years.
Because the frontal lobe of the brain does not fully develop until 23, youngsters need to learn to respect that experience even if their experience includes 100% of their life.
So i personally may politely "listen" to that youthful exuberance but I will never call it experience. For those under 23, trust m, your life "experience" had not yet begun.

Now. .. Some where in between we have way too many people who could use a good balance of both experience and exuberance. From my experience. .. Pun intended. .. experience is only something you acquire when you no longer need it and is something only flaunted by those who really need it.

So... Since I am neither old enough to be experienced and past the point of exuberance I will use my infinite wisdom to suggest not taking the written word personally and being so defensive.
And remember...it's much easier to learn when we listen than when we give our opinion. ;-) and as my great grandpa loves to say, "the day you quit learning is the day you die". Wise, wise man!

LOL,, Red ridge, I think the age is 25 not 23 . . . that's what I tell my kids . . . . so until then it is my job to keep them from killling themselves out of youthful exuberence. I am the dampener -- the voice safety, wisedom and reason. lol GOd I hate being old.

 

[gjensen]

I think this is really interesting.
Now, I've seen mention of pushing chicks to see how fast and well they flesh out....at least I think that was the term. I also get the impression that having them flesh out ahead of their structural growth, while doing wonders for the dinner table, is ultimately not especially conducive to long-term health. So if you're pushing your crop of chicks and selecting for weight/age, because you want to eat them, how do you keep the ones you want as breeders healthy? Would you, at the point where their gains slow, make a final selection and put them on a more sustainable ration?

M

You want them to grow out in line with what they are supposed to be. You do not want to choose the excessively fast in some breeds. It would not be in keeping what they are supposed to be. They are all different. I would not expect a Jersey Giant to grow out like a New Hampshire or a Minorca like a Leghorn. If you notice that the different varieties have their own path. They are different birds. Then there is also a marked difference between the cockerels and pullets. Everyone has to find their own ideals.

As far as pushing them . . . . that is a management issue that everyone would have a different opinion on. I feed mine what I think is a good growing ration and let the genetics speak for themselves.

One of the points was to be aware of our bird's growth curve and know how they measure up. Once you see them through a couple generations, you kind of know where they are at and where you would like to see them.

This was never meant to be directions, but encouragement to watch it as they grow out. It has helped me understand how it relates to the birds that I raise. It has also helped me see what I wanted to see improved. My Catalanas get around Standard size eventually, but do not flesh out early enough to be useful dual purpose birds. If I waited until a late date to evaluate them, they are already tough. They are sexually mature at an early age. By the time they have the size and weight, they are no longer tender. It is not just the final weight that makes them useful.

EB Thompson bragged that his Rocks had good fleshing early on. It was a remarkable trait to him. I like to see this to. I do not want to see a NH that is all feather @ 8wks, because he will not be a whole lot better at 12 wks. Regardless of how big they get eventually. I want to pick that little 8wk old cockerel up and feel like I have something in my hand, and not be misled by feather. This is genetics more than it is feed.

 

[southernmomma]

You want them to grow out in line with what they are supposed to be. You do not want to choose the excessively fast in some breeds. It would not be in keeping what they are supposed to be. They are all different. I would not expect a Jersey Giant to grow out like a New Hampshire or a Minorca like a Leghorn. If you notice that the different varieties have their own path. They are different birds. Then there is also a marked difference between the cockerels and pullets. Everyone has to find their own ideals.

As far as pushing them . . . . that is a management issue that everyone would have a different opinion on. I feed mine what I think is a good growing ration and let the genetics speak for themselves.

One of the points was to be aware of our bird's growth curve and know how they measure up. Once you see them through a couple generations, you kind of know where they are at and where you would like to see them.

This was never meant to be directions, but encouragement to watch it as they grow out. It has helped me understand how it relates to the birds that I raise. It has also helped me see what I wanted to see improved. My Catalanas get around Standard size eventually, but do not flesh out early enough to be useful dual purpose birds. If I waited until a late date to evaluate them, they are already tough. They are sexually mature at an early age. By the time they have the size and weight, they are no longer tender. It is not just the final weight that makes them useful.

EB Thompson bragged that his Rocks had good fleshing early on. It was a remarkable trait to him. I like to see this to. I do not want to see a NH that is all feather @ 8wks, because he will not be a whole lot better at 12 wks. Regardless of how big they get eventually. I want to pick that little 8wk old cockerel up and feel like I have something in my hand, and not be misled by feather. This is genetics more than it is feed.

Bah~ of course!

I dialed in on that graph and managed to forget everything else, probably the most important aspects really. When I close my eyes I can see that graph in fluid motion, drifting (one way or the other) as breeding season's pass and stock is selected. It rather poetic, or perhaps like musical notes hovering over the sheet, waiting to be organized into song; the genetics are there waiting to be wooed out and how the flock is managed shows how the potential of the bird is realized.......however their total potential is absolute even if never fully realized. Know the history so to understand your bird. I think this is what you mean by 'the birds tell on us'.

Educational as usual g. Thank you,
M

 

[mithious]

Hi all

I've read about 20 pages of this thread so far and am enjoying it tremendously. Tons of GREAT info here. Do you all mind if I hang around? I used to raise and breed, but got out of chickens for quite a while. Am JUST getting back in, as of last year. Started with a small hatchery flock of BR's to see if I still " had it in me " and Bob Blosl was mentoring me. Since loosing Bob

I feel like I am floundering.

I have tried a couple threads, but don't seem to fit in and am looking for a place to learn, ask questions, and share. A lot has changed since I took that time off, the lingo, and now genetics seems to play a large part in breeding. So am trying to learn those parts. I don't know if I am considered a "newbie" since I am just getting back into chickens and breeding, or if, what I did before, makes me somewhere between???? All I know, is that the more I read, I realize the less I do know. Especially in the way things are being done now.

Seems there is a great group here and no judging and really need to land somewhere as I go down this road.

I DID get Standard Breeds this year and picked two breeds to work on, ended up with 3 breeds ( one of the breeds I got as a gift, and have not a clue about, but am trying to read and learn but have lots of questions about )

I spent the past year, mostly reading on BYC and like I said, tried a few threads, but really like what you all are doing here and again, have lots of questions and am sure more will pop up as I walk this road.

I DO need to purchase another APA SOP, as I think I gave my copy to my kids, back when I gave them my birds, years ago. That I will do as soon as I can afford to. All my new Standard Breeds are still in their brooders, so I'm hoping that gives me some time to save up and buy another copy?

Can I join you all?

Thanks for sooo much wonderful info and all the long time breeders that have contributed!!! Back to reading