To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?

As I have failed to ever in my life worm a chicken, , please let me know if I have this right:

1. Wait till fall, when the temperature is not 123 degrees.

2. On the first day of treatment, put Piperazine-17 in water at the rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon.

3. Piperazine-17 is the same as Wazine-17.

4. Have this medicated water as their sole source of water for 24 hours.

5. After the 24 hours is up, dump the water and refill with fresh water.

6. On the 14th day of treatment, you have a choice.
You can either repeat steps 2 through 5,
or
You can use a broad-spectrum wormer like ferbendazole,
levamisole, orivermectin.

7. Throw away eggs collected 2 weeks after EACH round of
Piperazine-17, which means 28 days of no eggs.

8. If you choose to use one of the broad-spectrum wormers for step 6, does the 2-week-no-eggs rule still apply?


I am SO glad I read this post. I was going to worm with the Piperazine I got at the feed store yesterday. I didn't know the heat would be a factor!

Thank you threehorses and BYC for the great information!

I'd have to check my bottle for the dosage, but that sounds about right. And personally if it's been a while, I'd go ahead and do the worming soon. Just pick a relatively cooler day. But usually (because I worm on a schedule) I worm in the fall and spring.

This year I wormed in the middle of a heat advisory. It needed to be done, so I did it.

And yes the rest sounds fine. It is recommended to withdraw 14 days after most worming treatments. That's why after worming with Wazine, you might wait after that til Fall and start your schedule.

So it would be:

Now:wazine----> Fall:whichever wormer----> Spring: whichever wormer--->fall etc.

That's what I'd recommend if you haven't wormed. Worms are far more of a threat than the one day of wormer water would be. Piperazine has a very high safety factor.

What a great thread! Thank you all for the great information!!

Ok, so my question is, can you worm using the more broad spectrum wormer (say Ivermectin) in their water using the injectable form rather then trying to catch all the little birdys to put the drench drops on? And what would the dosage be? And I would assume that since guineas are a go for worming then anything you give them or the chickens would be ok for pheasants and peafowl, right? That's really more the reason that I would prefer to worm just in the water, pheasants are a pain enough to catch without adding 2 times a year for them to damage me

Some people do it. I do not like to do it that way personally as I use the twice-annual worming time to catch them up, which you need to do anyway. If you wanted to do it that way, I'd go with something like the Fenbendazole granules that First State Veterinary Supply sells.

Here's my take on things - ivermectin injectable used orally.

I've seen some ivermectin products marketed to be used in the water for a day (foy's). I suspect that they're injectable and labeled to be used that way. Other people use ivermectin injectable in a one-time dose in the mouth. That method I feel is less effective. The in-the-water-method I personally don't have experience with but of the two it might be the more effective. The reason being is that, unlike mammalian digestive tracts, avian digestive systems empty out really quickly. Average is somewhere between 3 hours and 6 hours. (Broodies, remarkably, can take up to 14 hours!) That means the ivermectin in one dose will only be in their body a short time. However the water-dosage ... that might work as they will continue to dose themselves.

So the reason I use the pour-on is that it does stay in their system longer as it's an oil that starts to absorb and continues to do so on the body. It's supposed to have a weeks-long effect on sucking lice. I have personally seen that it did continue to kill lice over three days - then there were no more to kill on my birds. I also know that the wormer works as in other times when I suspected worms, only wormed - no other changes, and had weight increases in my birds within the week. So what I know, I most highly recommend. Which of course doesn't mean the other ways don't work. If they didn't, I'd tell you.

So it's your call.

If I had the choice of in-water ivermectin and fenbendazole granules from first state, I'd go fenbendazole. But others might recommend the in-water treatment.

I'd love to know which you choose and how it works for you. Maybe then I can learn a little more about the water treatment first-hand from someone who has used it.

Thanks for your input. I will have to look into the granules as I have never even heard of them before now. Do you have a link to any specific site to purchase them or that gives more info? I will still have to know how much a person would use of the ivermectin in the water before I gave it a try. We use ivermectin in all the other farm animals with no problem, so I wouldn't see why it wouldn't do some good, but I have to agree that it might work better in the water based on those facts. Although 4 hours in the crop might still be enough time to absord through the skin. It soaks in pretty fast on the outside of any animals I have seen it used on.

Quote:
I've known about safe-guard granules before, but they're not labeled with directions for poultry. First State Vet labels them specifically for poultry.
http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=75
The label (which you can read by opening the picture) is labeled for young birds, but I contacted Dr. Brown there and he said it's the same for adult birds and the label is being changed.


And yes, the invermectin pour on really soaks into the skin (or fluff unfortunately) at a weirdly unnatural speed. Which is how fast it soaks into my skin as well. /sigh

OK on the ivermectin, it's the drench that I've seen for birds (0.5%) and here's the information on that. The drops in the mouth in this case are for pigeons.

This is their information:

Quote: "Used to treat worms and parasites. It is not advisable to give to birds that are very ill. The drench is meant to be used in the drinking water at the rate of 8 cc/ml to a gallon for one day and then repeat in 10-12 days. The 0.5% is used for individual birds, 3 or 4 drops down the mouth, then repeat in 10-12 days. The 1% may be used down the mouth at the rate of 2-3 drops, then repeat in 10-12 days. The 1% is also used by many to rid the birds of external blood sucking parasites by rubbing a few drops on the foot."
They list the drench as Ivomectin 0.5% 10ml/cc strength.
Source: http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/519-584.html

I also found this on a peafowl site that might be of interest:
Quote: "Mix 1 cc of 1% injectable cattle ivermectin per quart of water (4 ccs per gallon) and give it to your peafowl as their only water source for two days."
Source: http://tinyurl.com/ivermecdosage

avian vet on worming:
(not poultry specific but equally applicable!)
"....I recommend that birds be periodically dewormed, at least once or twice, during routine first examination, with pyrantel pamoate, even if fecal parasite examinations are negative. This is because the gastrointestinal tract transit time is so fast in birds that worm eggs do not concentrate in the fecals (as they do in dogs and cats), and it is not only possible, but likely, to miss ascarids on a fecal exam. I have performed countless second opinions on small birds with GI problems that have had negative tests for worms, yet, when I dewormed them, they passed roundworms! A very interesting paper was published a few years ago about this very problem, out of the University of Georgia. If a bird passes roundworms, it should be periodically dewormed for the rest of its life, as pathologists have found that larvae may encyst in the tissues and be released during times of stress, resulting in additional worms infesting the intestines...."
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/budgietiel.html

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/202800.htm
MERCK Veterinary Manual (Worms)
excerpt Piperazine and Fenbendazole:
"Piperazine compounds are relatively nontoxic and widely used against ascariasis. Several piperazine salts are available internationally. Because only the piperazine moiety is efficacious, doses should be calculated based on mg of active piperazine/bird. Piperazine should be completely consumed by birds within a few hours because only relatively high concentrations of the drug eliminate worms. It may be given to chickens as a single dose, 50-100 mg/bird, or at 0.2-0.4% in the feed or at 0.1-0.2% in the drinking water; it may be administered to turkeys at 100 mg/bird <12 wk old, 100-400 mg/bird ¡Ý12 wk old, or in feed or water concentrations as for chickens. Some practitioners recommend the addition of molasses to unmedicated water after piperazine administration, so as to induce an osmotic flushing, theoretically removing any of the remaining worms from the intestinal tract. The medications must also be withdrawn in turkeys 14 days prior to slaughter. There is increasing evidence of significant piperazine resistance in the USA.

Fenbendazole is approved in the USA for use in growing turkeys at the rate of 14.5 g/ton of feed (16 ppm), fed continuously as the sole ration for 6 days for the removal of A dissimilis and Heterakis gallinarum . ..."


When using fenbendazole do NOT over dose and keep in mind:
http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/18.pdf
FENBENDAZOLE - Panacur (Hoechst-Roussel)
"....Fenbendazole should not be used while active feather development is occurring (may damage developing feathers). Has not been found to be effective against the gizzard worm that infects finches.
May not always be effective against capillaria. May be effective
against Syngamus spp. The drug has a low therapeutic index in
some species of finches. A dose of 10 ml/liter of water has been
associated with death three to five days following administration.
This dose may cause ataxia, depression and mydriasis in canaries.

I do not have time to go and pull up all the references but my understanding is to use the ivomec(brandname)EPRINEX and then TOPICALLY (there is a study (avian) which showed the drug is more effective/longlasting (effecacy in the following five weeks following application>mites etc) when topically applied on skin rather than ingested. Some (non-poultry specific) info :
IVERMECTIN - Ivomec, Eqvalen (Merck Agvet)
Supplied as an injectable solution (10 mg/ml) for IM, topical or oral
administration. Effective for some nematodes, mites and lice. Most
effective therapy for Knemidokoptes. Calculated dose can be used
topically on affected areas or can be given orally. May also be effective for Oxyspirura, some coccidia, some nema-
todes, gapeworms and sternostamatosis. May not be effective
against all coccidia. Toxic in bullfinches and goldfinches when used
topically at 0.4 mg/kg. Propylene glycol is used as a carrier in the
solution designed for cattle and pig use. This product will precipi-
tate out if diluted with sterile water. The propylene glycol-based
product may cause toxic reactions when administered IM, particularly in small birds. Ivermectin diluted in propylene glycol will
settle out and the diluted product should be thoroughly mixed
before administration. The water-soluble preparation designed for
use in horses is easier to work with and appears to be safer.
However, deaths in finches and budgerigars have been reported
when Eqvalan (the water based formula) was administered IM at
the recommended dose.Ivermectin is environmentally stable and is highly toxic to fish and crustaceans. The drug or its metabolites should not be allowed to contaminate lakes, streams or rivers."

>>>do NOT use fendazole on young feather developing age birds nor on molting birds!

Quote:
Well you know that you don't have worms now Since Ivermectin is used in human applications, then it should not be to big an issue and god knows living in this world with all the parisites and deseases in our food supply that they are constantly recalling our food for, it might just be a good thing that we get wormed with our birds. From what it looks like, the amounts are supposed to be the same wether you use the drench or the injectable, based on percentages. 8CC's of the .05% drench or 4CC's of the 1.0% injectable. Thanks for the info.

Quote:
LOL!! Definitely I'm not wormy! Neither is my boyfriend as I got him, too. And yes - they do use ivermectin for humans for all sorts of things, and ivermectin is the least of my worries.

I'm glad I could be of help. Do take care!