A Bielefelder Thread !

[Chickielady]

The Auburn Javas have a neat story behind them.

Garfield Farm Museum (in a far western suburb of Chicago) decided to raise a threatened heritage breed & chose the Java. In the 1990's there were very few pure Java's remaining, but they found a breeder in MN. To help in this quest, the Museum of Sci & Industry in Chicago decided to hatch Java eggs as part of their exhibit. (As a child, it was always my fav part of our visit.) Anyway about 15 years ago a white Java hatched! It was in the news & perhaps due to strong inbreeding, line breeding, dormant genes, or simply not enough genetic variety. More chicks with white & also auburn portions started hatching, so those were bred back to the fathers in a successful attempt to bring back those varieties. A few years ago, my DD had a long conversation with someone who purchased & continued to breed the Garfield Museum's line of Auburn Javas. She was offered some hatching eggs if she was interested in helping in the effort to bring back the auburn Javas. It was her 1st year in 4H & she had just won Best in Show for her poultry science project. She decided that she wanted to try out several breeds in a mixed flock before settling a single breed. She still hasn't picked a single breed. Now I kind of wish we had at least exchanged contact info.

Anyway, in the case of the Javas, they had a unique opportunity to hatch several 1000s of chicks every year for a couple decades. I doubt many breeders would have the volume to work with their flock's genetics on such a large scale.

Remember, that white is part of black, which is the very definition of silver, in the poultry world.
The issue with the Java was the fact (as far as all of us know in the USA) there never was, an Auburn Java...so bringing it back was ????????????????????? This story is told & retold within the SPPA and Monte Bowen and the others who gave the Garfield MUS their birds in the first place never had any red birds, ever.
That said, if you want more details, get ahold of members of the SPPA.
I am not going either way with the subject, other than what I have seen in my lifetime. If you want exact details, talk to the horses' mouth, and I talk to them a few times every week....Duane Urch & Monte Bowen and a few other long time breeders, and they scold me when I even bring up the subject of a Java of any other color than the very definetion of the breed...Black Javas, are exactly that.
Incindently, if anyone wants SQ Black Javas, Monte is still shipping hatching eggs.
PM me & I will give you his e-mail addy.
He gets cranky (

) and gets really really cranky when you suggest there is actually a red Black Java.
His quote to me was that "someone is breeding poop into the line, either by mistake or on purpose"

And that is absolutely true.
You will get a white from a black, on rare occasion, or in the case of the Black Java, you'd get a mottled...
Black.or white.................that is silver.
There is no other color, just black & white.
In order to have any other color, it was introduced.
Wether someone decided at that time to """save""" them, is not the issue.
The very issue is that impure blood was introduced.
Had to be.
He kicks my @@@ if I say otherwise....and I greatly appreciate his friendship.
And still, to this day, NO heritage Black Java "supplier" to the Garfield Museum, even aknowledges that there might be such a bird.
Look at Duane Urches' breeds:

http://standardbreedpoultry.com/breeder/Duane UrchUrch-Turnland poultry/190

They deny there is any red in the breed, and if so, it was blood introduced in the last 10 years.
Sad.....................these old guys worked very hard their whole lives to protect & keep these black & mottled Javas pure....and someone, just 1 someone, messed it up.

My point about the """Auburn Java""" stays exactly as I said when ""IT"" first came about:::
And that is it is a new breed, obviously...and should not be referred to as a "Black java""
So if you want to change colors & shapes and WEIGHTS of a breed..........then you should name it it's own name !
A Black java is a Black Java.
The other that is full of red genes, is obviously not a black java...and it needs its own name.

Monte has hatched (and so has Urch) millions of chicks, and none has ever emerged as red, and Monte still says, he would like to know WHO is deliberately fouling the bloodline.
So, don't shoot me, I am just telling you what they all say about it, and to add to that, they really hate "designer" chickens and those of "us" who """GO""" for a breed simply because it is """PRETTY""" instead of trying to save or "bring back" a heritage breed.

I get lectured on a regular basis just because I have Sulmtalers and Bielefelders....like I should be saving an American breed.....seriously...

********************You all know this is ramblings and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings....******
There is so many old poultry people who HATE any new colors and/or breeds, especially those old guys who have dedicated their lives to the purity and type to the SOP, their intire lives, only to have some "whipper Snapper" come along and say he has an Auburn java...this infuriates the old guys ! I know they tolerate me, and my ideas, but not a month goes by that one or more of them do not say to me "There are plenty of American heritage Breeds that need work and/or saving" and I know they are not happy about the new breeds, especially the "designer colors" To the old poultry people, these new colors are just proof that impure blood has deliberatly been introduced, rendering the bird a mutt.
I sympathize, but I would also be the first to run out and buy some Silver laced Orpingtons, too!

 

[Chickielady]

Well put! In the dog world, we call them "designer puppies". And people charge big bucks for these mixes with no way of knowing which traits of which breed you are going to get.

Besides, how could a bird be any more beautiful than these roos?

JMO, of course!

Isn't it "funny" that the mutt crosses cost more than the pure breeds nowadays ?

Like in the newspaper today was someone selling Pom/Chi/Pap puppies for $500. each...this is a dog no one can even argue what it is, no one can prove it is or is not what they say it is!

A $500. Pomeranian-Chihuahua-Papillon.....?????

 

[Chickielady]

All really good points here! There are many people that come on BYC posting pictures of their oddly colored and combed chickens that ask "What breed is this", and the experienced folks on here come back with "It's a mutt".

Just because you breed two different chickens together and like the color you come up with doesn't make it a NEW chicken breed! Truly building a NEW breed takes years!!

My Biels are going to live with my mixed flock. My only rooster will be my Biel rooster. So if any eggs hatch from anyone it'll be Biel/Wyandotte, Biel/Andalusian, Biel/Australorp, ect. nothing special, just a mutt. If course they'll be my babies so I'll think they are special and beautiful!

And after 25 years, you'll have a new breed.......................

 

[Chickielady]

this would be where line breeding comes into play? grins

Actually, since we know 'how' to make the pattern, we could use a bigger flock, instead of using this 1 bird.
The hardest part of 'making' more Busters, is that he was a sport, a freak...he had completely normal parents & siblings (as shown) as did (apparently) the Black javas that created a "sport" Auburn java.
They just happened.
Because I do not know what happened to make him, I cannot recreat it.
But, I can start from scratch & breed a barred bird (like a Barred Plymouth Rock, yellow legs, standard comb) to a Partridge Chantecler (yellow legs, cushion comb) and get what we see in Buster.
Actually you'd have to hatch alot of eggs from the mating & save the ones with the correct color & breed those F-1s back, and so on.
The cushion comb would be lost as a pea comb is dominant...so that would be probably the hardest challenge to get back on the final "Crele Chantecler"

 

[Chickielady]

@otakalhasas My Biele hens are old enough, but no rooster! I ordered the eggs on ebay! Got 2 out of 8 eggs. Now have 1 cockerel and 1 pullet Wish I had more, but I am happy!

Wish you were closer...I just had a hatch last night & have 4 new baby boys !

 

[Chickielady]

Hi all! ... and wow... Buster is a beauty. I like birds with intensiv coloring and shining feathers.
and I realy like the Bielefelder girls with the salmon colored breast. If you look up the German Standard for silber-kennfarbig are Bielefelder with less red. This is clear to see in the girls. Where the Standard says redish-gold for the nack feather in the original Bielefelder, the silver Bielefelder is silver-white both hens have salmon colored breasts. The silver hen is a little more yellowish while the other is more redish-brown in the feathers. Everything else is the same. I don't think that someone has imported silber-kennfarbige Bielefelder in the US or Canada. This color is new and super rare in the large Birds. Most silber-kennfarbige Bielefelder I saw were Bantams and they were exact the same size as the regular Bielefelder Bantams. Well if you can count a 1.3 kg bird as a bantam for me even this small versions of the Bielefelder are big birds. My biggest rooster is not have there size.

Correct.my guess completely!
I assumed the Canadians used Malines (as they have Malines) and they made their own "Silver Bielefelders".......they did not import any from Germany, they made their own.

And that is why they are so large, Malines are big birds.
So that brings up the question, "How can this bird be a Bielefelder, when it does not fit the standard."

In cases where people have bred so many wonderful colors into Wyandottes (for example)
The birds from one coloration to the next still conform to the standard in type (size, and weight, skin coloration, comb, etc)

 

[Chickielady]

I have a Q for @Bine and discussion from any others here.

I have 'gotten' my stock from 5 different states, in an effort to add more diverse bloodlines in, as to not inbreed anymore than possible.

The question is, how much difference I have seen in the males coloration.

White their type looks great, Some have a barred black breast, while some have barred black with blotches of gold, and some have more red than others.

I would love to see a Standard (from Germany) of the males and their coloration, if you could please post ?

I'd love to print out both the hens & Cocks type & coloration for further breeding since we do not have a standard on this breed....yet.

Please ????

 

[jbkirk]

I have a Q for @Bine and discussion from any others here.

I have 'gotten' my stock from 5 different states, in an effort to add more diverse bloodlines in, as to not inbreed anymore than possible.

The question is, how much difference I have seen in the males coloration.

White their type looks great, Some have a barred black breast, while some have barred black with blotches of gold, and some have more red than others.

I would love to see a Standard (from Germany) of the males and their coloration, if you could please post ?

I'd love to print out both the hens & Cocks type & coloration for further breeding since we do not have a standard on this breed....yet.

Please ????

The idea of a characteristic color
To breed chicken, in which one of the plumage coloration the chicks can immediately notice
What's cock or hen, had already in the thirties of the last century, the English
Professor Punett. The characteristic color
is from many racial poultry farmers,
due to the homozygosity and different
Drawing image of tap and Henne, admired. From the commercial poultry breeding
is known, that there are other racial crossings be made to identify color
To get chicks, but in the Fowl Breeding no meaning have.
The idea of breeding characteristic colorfulness was after the Second World War by breeders and Jobs Regenstein revived as they created the Italians in characteristic colored.
Origin of the breed
Following this pattern of inheritance
then were also the Bielefeld Chickens came to its own characteristics. You are a the recent German breeds and excited after the first Presentation 1976 a stir in the Breeders world under the name German characteristic chicken. This Breed name in 1980 with the recognition renamed in Bielefeld Characteristic chicken. They were initially Although referred to as a characteristic color, but look completely different as if the already known characteristic colored Italians – particularly the rooster feathers. The Faucet should, as the Lower Rhine in crele, a tricolor chest drawing show. Why was even with the Bielefeldern the Changed colors blow designation, because it is unfortunately occurred, that some judges the Color always identify with the colored Have compared Italians. Many Breeders feel this color game as particularly beautiful, especially the transition of colors always fluent appear. The Bielefeld have in three decades very well distributed, so that when the federal Look generally between 60 and 100 animals are presented. The Not only is the characteristic color attributable but also the enormous egg production and the this breed its own large, brown egg owe. The Standard are as egg-minimum weight 60 g on, but it is known that not particularly Althennen Laying rarely 70g heavy eggs. If you look to the used Output breeds Welsumer, Mechlin and Amrocks look, are already significant Leis obligations Predictably. Above all, you in this Erzüchtung on a fairly schnellwüchsiges and fast befiederndes chicken selects what pays today.
Distinguishing shaping attributes
Overall, Bielefeld are a
quite large framed with a chicken
roller-shaped and particularly
elongated body. For this, a lot
Value on a long, straight
and horizontally supported Rue -
bridges down. The obtuse angle
worn tail, with broad, but only medium long feathers, should be pretty good by the hackles be covered. Breeding difficulties there are still quite often with the blunt tail angle, but the looks of the standard Now just before and as we can not ignore. Far too often the tail is fluent from the back with light Swing. The top and bottom line should almost parallel what particularly by the depth, width, nice arched chest underscored becomes. This should include the slightly less harmoniously as medium-high runs fit. The legs should be to most of the side feathers be covered, especially in the Henne. However, too krüperhafter Stand not welcome, but still too often in hens an issue that especially the right loose leg springs faked. When animals with short or even shown hollow round back, is to see this as a big mistake, which also applies to triangular types, since the deep, expansive chest missing. But also to high position and bring steep tail posture, besides not sufficiently distinctive Lege belly in Henne, Point deduction. Head points This breed is only with single comb bred, and generally today the Kopfbehänge at shown top size limit will. The comb is ideally four to six wide scheduled Pip, with only up to about half the comb blade reaching cuts. This should especially Crest flag the neckline follow, but by no means rest. At the laying hen allows you a slightly surrounding crest flag. Harmonious to comb size should be the wattles, being carried out at such a large Chicken also slightly larger Kopfbehänge should allow. Equally Should the red ear lobes in Insert the big picture. Under no circumstances White storage is permitted here. Overall, the head acts quite large pores in the tissue Face is primarily unbefiedert and bright red. These acts, the orange-red, some great eye pretty good. The beak and Legs should be absolutely yellow. If the hen is allowed that the yellow pigment with good egg production some may subside, what but does not imply that the hen so-called flesh-colored legs may have. ? 6 chicken poultry newspaper 18 | 2008 Bielefeld characteristic chicken Attractive through performance and characteristic colors
1.0 Bielefeld characteristic chicken, crele,
Nat. Dortmund 1997 v SB (Norbert Nagel Raesfeld-Erle) Photo: Wolters Chicks of Bielefeld characteristic chicken right of Hahn, left a Henne Photo: Beautiful
The subtleties the drawing Bielefeld characteristic chickens are now in crele and silver crele recognized what two quite attractive colors. In both Color strokes can also the chicks on the first day be distinguished. The stopcock see generally ocher ckenstreifen out, with light brown Rü and a white spot on the Sperber Head. The chick is Henn Tan with a small, well-defined Sperber spot on the head. The chicks of silver crele the chicken colored mousy, to slightly ocher in Sound, and have a fingernail-sized, white or slightly yellowish Head spot. The Henn chicks are gray brown with dark brown Back strips. The head spot is more like a tip of a pencil Lined gray dot. That's the way it is easy even for a layman, the gender to separate. Consider plumage colouration the crele more closely, so we need to tap and Henne treat separately, since they fundamentally different in plumage are. The Faucet should in the neck and Saturated same slope and upper back his reddish yellow, shoulders and Elytra show the same Color, but somewhat richer in color consistently reddish. This pleasant Hue is a whole by light gray Sperberung interrupted so that a drawing available is, but on the shoulders and elytra covered far becomes. A slight gray tint in the back and especially in the binding area is permitted. But in no case is a sooty, black neck finish, as he often will be shown, permitted. The Secondaries are gray-white tawny cuckoo desired. The lower neck, chest, flanks and Belly should consistently yellow to be slightly red and by a interrupted brighter Sperberung will. Here is the entire lower body, a slight gray tinge in the color allowed. The control springs and at least the upper hackles should his cuckoo gray, so the entire tail actually cuckoo appears gray and Mantle plumage contrasts. The start small hackles then already with yellow retention. slightly brownish tinge the tail is permitted, it should but not out of hand. The hen is uniform and plain in color match. She should a lightened, rust-colored partridge Jacket with fluffy feathers Show Sperber drawing. This Sperber drawing often occurs on the Elytra as a bright Tupfung on. The gold-colored neck hackle has a darker, almost black stem stroke with light gray Sperber retention, so cuckoo the entire neck hackle appears. The chest should his reddish-yellow in the female, generally one speaks of a Salmon breast. Again one sees often, especially at the edge of that noticeable in the spring Sperber factor makes. Also makes the Standard nor concessions, by a slight yellowish Flitter permitted in the mantle feathers - I would rather than Federsaum look. The tail feathers of Henne are quite dark, often slightly trickled. Exhibit valuable animals here even a little light Sperber factor especially in the coverts. In conclusion of this different color match is to say that you only with clearly marked Should breed roosters. Only in this way is always the recognizability the chicks guaranteed. Silver crele is an entirely new color swatch in the Fowl Breeding and the most recent Color of Bielefeld. The color originated from the crosses, the one for Erzüchtung Bielefeld used. The silver has this the yellowish red in the plumage of Replaced cock, because the head, neck and saturated same slope are here silver white having an embedded, like Sperber Drawing infielder of the springs. The back and shoulders and elytra should silver white with more or less concealed, gray hawk drawing be. Rue cken- and wing deck - springs are in the lower range spring cuckoo more, on the Fe - end but mainly silver white, so this area almost entirely silver white appears. Also the Primaries and the inner webs Show the secondaries more or less often somewhat unclear, gross Sperberung. The Outer webs of secondaries are silver-white and form thus the white wing triangle. The larger Wing coverts in the binding area should cuckoo dark gray be. Breast, leg, Belly and tail should in Alternation of light and dark gray slightly arched, without sharp boundaries, be cuckoo. Also Poultry newspaper 18 | 2008 Chickens 7? ? The covered tail feathers should an indicated Sperber drawing show. Because the hens a more or less bright, more own bread yellow salmon breast, it comes naturally very often, that the valves in the jewelery feathers show little yellow tinge. However, the applicable standard as loud blunder, so you actually allow only a light cream can. The hen should at the head Neck hackle with a silver white dark gray hawk drawing his featherweight infield. The neck shaft line is this drawing interrupted. Under no circumstances should the Kopfbefiederung with black or brown feathers start. This is a gross error, even when the standard allows that the neck area slightly darker is permitted. The breast is indeed salmon to reddish yellow desired, but here are white feather games permitted. The entire Mantle plumage is covered by bright to dark gray, slightly bogiger Sperberung which nevertheless possible
show sharp differences should. The intermediate parts in the Spring show a slight gray giant Lung. Especially in shoulder and Back is a light tinsel allowed the animals without Flitter act racy. Rust on the elytra is frowned upon and counts as a big mistake. The Swing and tail feathers of Hen are much darker and unclear in the somewhat crude Sperberung, Never should the feathers but completely black be. In addition to the beautiful form and Colors have the Bielefeld also a significant economic Value by a particular tasty and meaty Carcass yield. After all If the tap 3 to 4 kg and the Henne from 2.5 to 3.25 kg Weight control and laut Standard 230 eggs per year, but what reaches only sporadically and is not generalized can be. Fritz Beautiful
they first talk about the histroy of auto-sexed chickens, the auto-sexing Italians (Leghorns) of Mr. Jobs and Mr. Regenstein..., fast forwart to the Bielefelder body
type:
Overall, Bielefeld are a quite large framed with a chicken cylindrical and particularly elongated body.
It is very importend that back is long, straight and horizontally carried by the chicken.
The tail should be worn in a obtuse angle, with broad,but only medium long feathers and should be pretty good coverd by the hackles.
The obtuse angle of the tail is often difficult to achieve, but the standard is clear that is has to be a obtuse angle.
Far too often birds with a tail that is flowing from the back in a light arc are shown.
The top and bottom line should almost be parallel with an nice arched deep chest that underscores the body lines.
The leggs should be a little bit less than medium-high and fit harmoniously.
The thighs should be coverd by the side feathers. This is especially importen for hens.
but it should not look like a Krüpper....a Krüpper or a Scotish Dumpy
Birds with short or hollow round backs or a triangular body - missing broad chest- should not be shown.
BIrds will lose points for to high position and steep tail posture,
and a not sufficiently distinctive layer-belly in hens.
Head points
This breed is bred only with single comb. Being now generally shown with big head marks. The comb has ideally four to six sprongs withe a wide base. The comb blade should only be cut in half by the prongs. Comb flag should follow the topline of the head/neck, but never lie to the side. for a laying hen a slightly leaning comb is allowed. The wattles should be harmonious to comb size , a big chicken can also have slightly larger headgear. Similarly, the red earlobes should fit in the overall picture. white earlobes are not allowed. Overall, the head appears quite large pores in the tissue, the face is mainly featherless and vivid red underscoured by orange-red, big eyes. The beak and legs should be deep yellow. If a hen is a very good layer, she is allowed to have a paler yellow pigment, but that does not means that the hen can have flesh-colored legs.

The coloration.
the first paragraph is about the chicks, darker strips for the girls and the point and the lighter color for the boys.
ff to the rooster:
The neck, the upper back and the saddle should be reddish yellow, the shoulder and the wing cover should be reddish yellow but deeper in color and more reddish. This pleasant tone is interrupted by light gray cuckoo-strips so that a drawing is present, but is in the backround on the shoulder and the wings. A slight gray shadowing on the back is permitted, especially in the binding area. But the neck should not show black-sooty hem. That is often shown but should not be bred.
The secondaries are desired gray-white-tawny cuckoo.
The lower neck, chest, flanks and belly should be yellow to slightly reddish and are interrupted by a brighter cuckoo.
A light gray shadow is allowed on the entire lower body.
the control feathers(?) and at least the upper hackles should be gray cuckoo, so that the entire tail appears actually gray cuckoo and contrast the body color.
The small hackles begin then already with yellow retention. A slightly brownish tinge in the tail is permitted, but he should not get out of hand.

The hen is more uniform and more plain colors. You should show a lightened, rust and partridge colored coat feathers with fluffy cuckoo drawing. This cuckoo drawing often occurs on the elytra as bright spots. The gold colored neck has a darker, almost black stem stroke with light- gray cuckoo dots, so that the entire neck hackle appears cuckoo colored. The chest should be reddish-yellow in the female, generally it is called a salmon breast. especially at the edge the cuckoo dots are noticeably again.

Than they go on and talk about the silver-crele color you can see in the pics, too.
This is the german standard translated by someone.(I don't remember who)

 

[Bine]

Oh, this is an easy task. Greenfire did a translation of the Standard here. And look through hen daisy on youtube. Not all chickens are "best in show", they often have minor flaws,some have tail issues but still, they "survived" the table discussions at the local club. I don't know if you have something like it in the US. You bring your birds to the local club and the judges of the club discuss the pro and cons of the birds with you and if a bird is not good enough for show they will tell you. They even encourage you to bring the birds you think are not that good, so you can learn from it, often you see the flaws you may have in your breeding group better in birds that are plain failures by the Standard and you can adjust or rearrange your breeding groups for better results.
This events are much more relaxed than a show and I am always amazed how much knowlage some breeders gained over time. Some of the older breeders here can tell you what to breed with what to bring out better coloring, tails etc. just by taking a brife look at your birds.

 

[bluejean55girl]

I have a Q for @Bine and discussion from any others here.

I have 'gotten' my stock from 5 different states, in an effort to add more diverse bloodlines in, as to not inbreed anymore than possible.

The question is, how much difference I have seen in the males coloration.

White their type looks great, Some have a barred black breast, while some have barred black with blotches of gold, and some have more red than others.

I would love to see a Standard (from Germany) of the males and their coloration, if you could please post ?

I'd love to print out both the hens & Cocks type & coloration for further breeding since we do not have a standard on this breed....yet.

Please ????