A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Serica]

Hmmm. I think I understand where you are coming from. But I'd also think that to have success. Especially with those who are dealing with large numbers of birds or are attempting to get rarer birds back on track, keeping records would be important.

I'm no breeder ... Yet. I don't even have my breed of choice yet. But I do know I'll have some type of record keeping going on. If for nothing else than to aid my failing memory. LoL

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Best birds to best birds works great when you have a lot of birds to choose from and the breed is in good shape. If you're working with a limited number of birds and a breed in bad shape there are other issues to deal with - like not losing recessive breed-defining traits from the flock (in my breed's case, yellow soles) while working on body shape and size. Keeping track of which birds are carrying at least one copy of the unseen trait comes in really handy. Different breeders have different goals, and different tools for working toward those goals. Tools have improved over the years. Some people become tool-obsessed and forget to keep it simple, but the tools are still useful in certain circumstances.

 

[3riverschick]

Paul Hardy told me "breed your best birds to your best birds" He liked to keep it simple. Didn't keep an intensive record system, and had some of the best birds there was.

Then you see people trying to keep track of their chickens like they have registration papers on them. I'm not a master breeder but I do know if you breed junk to junk, you will wind up with junk. Doesn't matter what the parentage is behind them , saying he is out such and such who is 75% of such and such that was out of him that was x+x-b/wM/blah blah will get you no where if the bird can't back it up.

When I first told Paul how I was going to keep records he chuckled. Lesson learned. Keep it simple.

Hum....hum....quoting the genetic odds behind my birds is only
one of several evaluation methods I use when planning a breeding.
Since my flock is very small and I will never be a medium sized
operation, I must use every evaluation method appropriate to analyze
my breedings from every angle. What a large breeder can do
by breeding more chicks and selecting from them. I must to thru
pre evaluation of matings and balancing excellence in the abstract.
It takes many more hours of mental work, esp. with the sex-linked
genes involved. I'm not saying the large breeder doesn't do this,
I am saying I must do even more. But I love the research so that's ok
with me. In this particular instance I think quoting genetic ratios
was a correct way to approach this particular defect. because I wasn't
sure if it was genetic or not ana I was looking for counsel on the matter.
I spent a bunch of hours last night looking up split wing, slipped wing
and twisted feather. I had to go back to the classic texts because
so many modern people are confused that split and slipped wing are
the same thing. They are not. Felch got it right. Angel wing seems
to be slang for slipped wing. I didn't see it associated with split wing.
Twisted feather seems to be a feather which is in the slipped wing
position but tuned upside down so the viewer is seeing the bottom side
of the feather.
These are the best definitions I found for each.
1. slipped wing: (correction, this is angel wing. It only happens in waterfowl. , live and learn 5-7-14)http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1tI9ylAbWNQ/Tjf8jA0Y2sI/AAAAAAAACJE/zhazPkYNaJc/s1600/venture+2013.jpg


===========
2.a. Slipped Wing , added 5-7-14):

http://www.poultryclubsa.co.za/category/7-defects-and-disqualifications/

mode of occurrence can be : nutritional, genetic recessive ;
lack of exercise; tired bird; result of bad habit on birds part;
injury.
Page 130 Philosophy of Judging. Felch
form. The wings should be carried high enough to cause a
fiat cape across the back, and one that is drooping is defective
and should be cut 1 point. For imperfect folding, cut from
2 to 2 points, the latter amount when the defect called a
"slipped wing" is present. By this term is meant a wing in
which the primaries are folded outside of the secondaries.
( my italics)

------------------------------
Poultry breeding applied / by F. A. Hays and G. T. Klein.
Published:
Mount Morris, Ill. : Poultry-Dairy Publishing Co., 1943
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924074177258;view=1up;seq=52
8. The Inheritance of Disqualifications and Defects
Wing and Tail—Wing defects, such as split wing and slipped
wing, appear to behave as recessive characters. The same probably
is true for split tail and wry tail.
---------------------------
The new book of poultry / by Lewis Wright ;
London ; Cassell, 1902. Pages 211 and 212
Slipped what poultry men call " slipped "
Wings. or "turned" wings; the primary
feathers, or those which ought to
be nicely tucked away out of sight when the
wing is closed, protruding in more or less dis-
order outside the others. (my italics) The tendency is to
some extent hereditary, no doubt, and it mars
the beauty of a bird completely. Pullets are
far less liable to it than cockerels, and therefore
when it occurs in the female sex it is propor-
tionately more serious in character. In the
most aggravated form the flight feathers appear
actually twisted, so that the proper inside of the
feathers becomes outside, and in this form the
affection is both strongly hereditary and we
believe incurable. But when it merely amounts
to failing to tuck the flight feathers in, without
any great disorder among those feathers them-
selves, it may generally be cured if taken in due
time. The usual cause we believe to be the
buffeting of cockerels by their stronger neigh-
bours, which causes rapid flapping followed by
imperfect closing, and after a few times this
becomes habitual and the mischief is done : at
least, it more rarely occurs in a wide run, or in
the master-bird of the yard.
The treatment is simple. As soon as any
displacement of the new feathers is observed the
wings should be carefully tucked up .every night
at roost ; but nothing further can be done till
they are grown enough to hold a ligature, when
one or both wings, as required, should be care-
fully bound up with each feather in proper
position. (description of method follows).
-------------------------------


2. Split wing, genetic mode of inheritance is recessive:


http://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/recessive-genes-faults :
Excerpt:
"Whether a bird carries split-wing or not can be identified once
the wing is fanned out. It is a fault in many standard poultry breeds
and is caused when a feather called the 'Axial' is missing. This
should be situated between the primary and secondary feathers.
A lack of this feather causes a visual gap known as 'split-wing'
and suggests weakness of the wing."
(definition separate from above book: "Axial Feather-the short feather
growing between the primaries and secondaries of the wing." )

3. Twisted feather:
Best pic I could find:


Standard poultry for exhibition; a complete manual ... .
Robinson, John H. (John Henry), Page 64
Serious Defects — Twisted flights; broken or missing
primaries or secondaries.
The two wings of a bird usually have the same faults,
but occasionally a fault will be found in one and not in
the other. Hence, each wing should be fully examined.
Twisted feathers in one wing only would be supposed to
be caused by an injury to the wing which prevented the
feather or feathers from growing in the normal position.
Twisted feathers in both wings might possibly result
from such an accident, but are more likely to be due to
congenital slight deformity of the last joint of the wing.
A slippedwing may or may not be permanent. Many
birds that normally fold the wing right and tuck it close
will slip the wing more or less when excited or tired. Al-
most any bird that is being handled and examined, the
wings opened and perhaps held open for some time, may
fail to tuck its wing immediately when put on its feet
again. In that case a light touch at the lower edge of the
folded wing may prompt the bird to tuck it closely. Or,
if this is ineffective, to simply take hold lightly with
the thumb and finger and draw the wing out and down
a little bit, and then release it, may result in the bird
tucking it right. The natural thing is for the bird to
fold the wing properly when it has been moved out of
position — if it can. If repeated efforts to make the
bird fold the wing right are unavailing, it is still possible
that if the bird is let alone for a while it will fold the
wing right. Of one thing an exhibitor may be quite sure
— that a bird that slips its wings with a very little hand-
ling at home will be as bad or worse in the showroom.
He will also find that some birds that were never known
to fail to fold the wings right after handling at home
will show slipped wings after a day or two on exhibition.
This cannot be guarded against except so far as good
care and sufficient exercise while the birds are being
conditioned gives them strong vitality. Wright describes
a method of helping slipped wings while the birds are
molting by carefully tying the flight feathers in the
position they should have when properly folded. The
efficiency of this would appear to be much greater where
the birds are not handled than where the wings are
opened as much, both by judges and by exhibitors them-
selves to show to others, as is usual in American shows.
In many color patterns the wings and tails are the parts
most difficult to keep free from color faults, and the
places where weakness in color shows first. In some,
excellence of wing color is sought to an extent that gives
it undue importance. So birds generally at American
shows have wings opened and handled a great deal, and it
is of great importance that they should be trained to fold
the wings promptly if they can. The judge will generally
give a bird that otherwise would be in the awards every
opportunity in reason to show that the fault is not per-
manent. I have known a judge to delay awards in a class
overnight simply to see whether the cockerel which, but
for a slipped wing, was the best in the class could show
perfect form.
-----------------------------
So I need to take some time and figure out what to do. If it is
recessive and only carried in one part of the gene pool,
I should able to inbreed past it, right?
Best,
Karen

 

[thedragonlady]

Tell me about the inheritance of "slipped wing".

Is it something you can overcome by inbreeding thru it?
I believe an angel wing is different from slipped wing and I was inquiring about the slipped wing. Where the primaries are held at an outward angle from the rest of the wing. Do you think this is due to genetics, too much protein in chick feed, injury, lack of exercise ( i.e. too small a coop/run and or in ability to fly in the run) or ? . Can therapy or change to environment help or is it incurable/and/or genetic?
Thanks,
Karen

Lots of Orps have very weak wings. I noticed this early on.I brood my babies in a giant Rubbermaid horse rank in my greenhouse where they have a branch to fly up on. They do so at less than a week old. No weak wings.If you are calling a slipped wing, a wing where the primaries fold outside the secondaries, that is hereditary. Take a look at Silkies sometime. The breed is riddled with it.

 

[racertomtom]

Wow, so much math and genetics these days.. Back in the 1800s to mid 1900s where not so many people who completed high school let alone college and had the best poultry better then what you see these days. Tells you something about old farmers.

In the 1800s until WWII, everybody was a farmer and everyone had chickens. They were the majority. Today we're are a ridiculous fraction of the population without the available stock to breed with. Their commercial poultry was also standard bred poultry.

Paul Hardy told me "breed your best birds to your best birds" He liked to keep it simple. Didn't keep an intensive record system, and had some of the best birds there was.

Then you see people trying to keep track of their chickens like they have registration papers on them. I'm not a master breeder but I do know if you breed junk to junk, you will wind up with junk. Doesn't matter what the parentage is behind them , saying he is out such and such who is 75% of such and such that was out of him that was x+x-b/wM/blah blah will get you no where if the bird can't back it up.

When I first told Paul how I was going to keep records he chuckled. Lesson learned. Keep it simple.

Paul had the best Silver Spangled Hamburgs on the planet. There was no reason for him to keep records. Don't breed two of the same toe punch and you can't screw up. My White Rocks are like that, but it took decades before either line was like that.

-----------------------------
So I need to take some time and figure out what to do. If it is
recessive and only carried in one part of the gene pool,
I should able to inbreed past it, right?
Best,
Karen

I think you can breed past it. I also think you will have to keep good records to identify which birds don't carry a recessive defect. Getting rid of something dominant is easy, getting rid of something recessive is very hard. I agree that both birds carried it. In the chicks, 1/4 will show it, 1/2 will carry it and 1/4 will not carry it. But which 1/4?

 

[3riverschick]

I think you can breed past it. I also think you will have to keep good records to identify which birds don't carry a recessive defect. Getting rid of something dominant is easy, getting rid of something recessive is very hard. I agree that both birds carried it. In the chicks, 1/4 will show it, 1/2 will carry it and 1/4 will not carry it. But which 1/4?

Ok. Hum. The bird who was the carrier is gone. (this is all presuming it is
genetics). I have 2 of his sons. I don't know if they are carriers but they are
both out of the mating which never produced slipped wing.
which tells me their dam is not a carrier.

1. So I am going to breed son to non-carrier mother and hope I can get 50/50 split.
2. I can also breed the hen which threw the slipped wing to her son( see #1)
and see what happens. That should tell me if her son is a carrier.
3. I also have an outcross hen. I can breed one of the brothers to her and see what falls out of the tree.
Either way in 2 generations I hope I will be seeing 50% clear of slipped wing.

Thanks for your help! Now I have a plan!
Best,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Lots of Orps have very weak wings. I noticed this early on.I brood my babies in a giant Rubbermaid horse rank in my greenhouse where they have a branch to fly up on. They do so at less than a week old. No weak wings.If you are calling a slipped wing, a wing where the primaries fold outside the secondaries, that is hereditary. Take a look at Silkies sometime. The breed is riddled with it.

I noticed this tendency with my NHs, earlier on. Just the males.

 

[3riverschick]

In the 1800s until WWII, everybody was a farmer and everyone had chickens. They were the majority. Today we're are a ridiculous fraction of the population without the available stock to breed with. Their commercial poultry was also standard bred poultry.

Paul had the best Silver Spangled Hamburgs on the planet. There was no reason for him to keep records. Don't breed two of the same toe punch and you can't screw up. My White Rocks are like that, but it took decades before either line was like that.

I think you can breed past it. I also think you will have to keep good records to identify which birds don't carry a recessive defect. Getting rid of something dominant is easy, getting rid of something recessive is very hard. I agree that both birds carried it. In the chicks, 1/4 will show it, 1/2 will carry it and 1/4 will not carry it. But which 1/4?

Thank you!
Best,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

If you don't have the best birds on the planet you better keep records.......particularly if you are new to breeding (10 years or less) and particularly if you have problems like the wing problems mentioned here.

Angel wing is usually only found in waterfowl. The proper terms for these wing problems are in the APA Standard.

Walt

 

[3riverschick]

If you don't have the best birds on the planet you better keep records.......particularly if you are new to breeding
(10 years or less) and particularly if you have problems like the wing problems mentioned here.

Angel wing is usually only found in waterfowl. The proper terms for these wing problems are in the APA Standard.

Walt

I tried very hard to use all the right terms. Where did I make a mistake?
Thanks,
Karen