Aaaargh! Dog breeders!

[carolinagirl58]

I wanted to add this too. I talked to one Anatolian Shepherd breeder who told me that she would not give me permission to breed my dog even if it was an AKC champion, until she got to know me! Then, and only then, would she decide. I can't risk that. Showing a dog to the point of championship is very expensive and I'll be darned if I am going to go to all that work and expense and then be at her mercy.....waiting to see if she "likes" me or not. If you can't breed, there is no point of showing! Showing a dog is to prove worthiness to breed, which is why only unaltered animals are allowed to show.

 

[watchdogps]

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Six litters out of one female???

 

[watchdogps]

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That seems odd to me. I decide before I give you a dog if I like you! It probably wasn't so much if she liked you as if she thought the dog was what she wanted to carry on. Even among champions there are various qualities, and she may have decided that even though it was a ch, she didn't like something about it. But, I feel that if you want THAT much control, keep the dog yourself.
I personally feel that if I produce a dog who is good enough to get that ch, even if there is something I don't like, as long as it isn't. Glaring problem, I can probably find a mate that will compliment it and even out the fault. It would just require very careful choosing, but I do that with any dog

 

[mom'sfolly]

I suggest that if you are looking for a herding dog, and you want good genes for that, start looking for people who breed herding dogs. Don't get hung up on a particular breed. Border collies and Australian cattle dogs have the instinct and the smarts. Go for a border collie with working registrations not necessarily AKC registration. Breeders who are breeding for working dogs are going to be as careful as breeders who are breeding for conformation.

I wouldn't get hung up on propagating the species either. It seems to me that you think that breeding to AKC standards are ruining the herding ability of the dogs you admire. Responsible breeders have a vested interest in their dogs doing well; if you don't want to buy into their rules, you need to look elsewhere.

Selling dogs with a "do not breed" clause is the breeders way of culling. Most people prefer it to the way breeders culled 100 years ago, with killing unwanted/unfit dogs. Anyone running a responsible breeding program knows that some animals are not fit for breeding. If you let those animals out of your control, you also cannot control the breeding. People unwilling to cull are what makes the mess in shelters; people who won't neuter, who think their adorable chi-dog needs puppies, people who just don't care. My neighbor wanted to breed her nasty tempered, poorly built little dog because he was "so cute" and people would pay good money for cute little badly breed purebred dogs.

 

[carolinagirl58]

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I thought it was really odd too. But she specifically said that she'd have to get to know me before she'd allow me to breed. Needless to say, I am not going to jump through her hoops.

 

[Senna95]

You make some good points, and for those that want to breed for "the entire package" in one specific breed of dog, well, that's GREAT. Go for it. But don't tell others what to breed for.

I raise ducks. I have some excelent show quality Indian Runner ducks that are from Holderread farms. Before me, they were owned by someone in Colorado, and my husband and I drove all the way out to Colorado to pick them up (a 5-day round trip). Once I got them home, I actually crossed some of them with another breed of duck in order to eventually obtain Indian runners in a new color variety. This is a very well thought out breeding plan. I've spent way too much money, and countless hours studying the genetics, talking to people, asking questions, getting NPIP'd, building cages, pens, runs, fences, and houses. I mix my own feed and collect from several local produce markets several times a week. I've put A LOT of time and effort into these birds, and I don't expect to get rich. It's my HOBBY! Now if I had been sold these ducks with a contract stating that I could only breed them to "the same breed, and for show purposes", then it would be someone else's opinion of who and what to breed for. This is MY hobby, and I have my own very specific goals in mind in my breeding program. Holderread Farms will always have their well deserved and excellent reputation, no matter how I choose to breed and use their birds.

That said, and onto my next point:

Throughout the history of dogs, especially working dogs, there has been very little attention paid to their physical appearance. It's always been "function over form". In recent history, this has been changed to "form over function" by many of the show breeders, and it has caused some huge problems for many breeds:

German shepherds with bad hips (how can they herd sheep with bad hips???)
Bulldogs that can't run becasue they can barely breathe
Cocker Spaniels that have mental issues because their skull is literally too small for their brain
Dalmations with eye problems
Sharais (sp?) and chow chows with skin problems
Burmese mountain dogs which are so prone to cancer that their life expectancy is less then 5 years
Dachsunds with spinal problems
And more....

All in the name of Beauty!

Times have changed A LOT since our need for the working dog. We no longer count on Mans Best Friend the way we used to. Working dogs, such as shepherds and hunters are now usually a hobby rather then a necessity. A few breeders are still breeding for working purposes, but this too has its inherrent problems when they're in the wrong hands. Have you seen how destructive a work-minded boarder collie can get when living in an appartment? Or how aggressive a territorial Rotweiler can be when locked in a small inter-city backyard?

So many people live in appartments in cities, and don't have the time to properly excercise their work-oriented dog. Nor do they want to spend thousands of dollars on a top show-quality dog whose breeders sometimes opt to breed for confomation in lieu of temperment and health.

There has been a strong trend recently toward breeding "designer dogs" (cocke-poos, laber-doodles, and a host of others whose names I can't remember right now). This is all in seach of the perfect "pet quality" dog with good hybrid vigor. And thus, the man-made evolution of the dog continues.

To those that are trying to preserve the old breeds in their original form: Great! More power to you! To those that are breeding better guard dogs, drug dogs, guide dogs, companion dogs, and pets: Great! Have at it! To those puppy mills and irresponsible breeders that are churning out puppies for their own financial gain at the expense of their dogs: Shame!

And to those that breeders that have already decided that I am un unwothy dog breeded just because I don't have the same goals as you.... well.... you need to let me be the decider of what's important to me in my dogs. If we had all followed the guide lines for the "original dog" we'd still all be living with wolves!

In the mean-time, I will continue with my efforts of finding a good dog to work with. Maybe to breed in the future, and maybe not. But that decision should be mine based on ALL of the dogs qualities, and not just on a beauty pagent score from the AKC!

 

[carolinagirl58]

http://www.stockdog.com/breeders/terv.htm

have you seen this link? I believe most of these breeders are producing working stock that also competes in the show ring. Maybe you can find a suitable breeder here.

 

[bairo]

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Bravo. So well said that i want to drive out there just to shake your hand. I could not agree more.
Harley my intact male GSD is now 16 months old and I am already worried I will not be able to replace him with what I look for in the breed when the time comes due to what you point out of form over function. Harley is a wonderful friend and companion. He is spoiled yet protective, he is gentle yet always willing to go to work, his back legs are actually a normal length and his blood line has not been Americanized. Harley was never registered due to a congenital ear cartaledge issue on one side. So i will have an extremely difficult time finding a good mate for him. I am willing to try and breed the cartalidge issue out for the sake of preserving his wonderful traits and working ability.....but alas I will probably never be allowed to do that these days. Other people have already decided what is best for me and my dogs it seems.

 

[carolinagirl58]

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But if your dog has a congenital ear problem, he should NOT be bred no matter how good he is. You can't breed out his problem.....you will just pass the problem on to some or all of his pups or generations down the road. We should never breed our dogs just because we like them, and we should certainly never breed dogs with known issues. They should exemplify the breed in every way.....working ability, health, AND looks. Most AKC show breeders concentrate just on health and looks but there ARE some breeders who concentrate on the whole package. You just have to dig harder to find them.

 

[lishah2000]

Ultimately it is the breeders choice what happens to their pups. Honestly if I was looking at a breeder that didn't have restrictions/contracts regarding breeding and spay/neuter I would walk away.

I am currently looking for a puppy of a herding breed. I want a pup with the best chance of being a mentally and physically healthy, next requirement is herding ability. Looks come last for me as long as it's physically healthy and able to work.

Because of this I'm looking at working lines. If my only choice was a breeder that didn't care how or if their pups were bred, I wouldn't get that breed or find a rescue dog. Of course I don't want to breed. But even if I did I would want more experience and a mentor to guide me. There is so much more involved than working ability and looks. I lived with the results of bad breeding. It was hard for me and the dog.

The breed I'm looking for is a popular one and I think that makes a breeder choice even harder. There are so many unhealthy dogs out there producing puppies.