Aaaargh! Dog breeders!

[Senna95]

Quote:
Problem is, ALL of the breeders I've talked to have said the same thing (though I haven't checked with the national breed clubs yet). They too may say that unless my dog is a "champion" herder, that I won't be allowed to breed him/her. Maybe s/he will excell at obedience. Or be an awsome companion dog, or a good guard dog, an amazing frizbeer, or whatever. Point is, it shouldn't be up to the breeder to decide for what purpose I want to breed my dogs, as long as I do it responsibly and don't breed unhealthy dogs.

Last year I had to put down my Malamute (he was 14 years old). I did not show him in conformation, nor did I use him for his inteded purpose of pulling a sled. I did, however, train him in obedience, and he did AWSOME! He placed first in a national competition 3 times, competing against germans shepherds, retrievers, and even a australian shepherd and a border collie. I had a judge come up to me after the show and tell me how amazed she was that I could get a malamute to mind so well, and that I should continue on with him at all costs. "He should be in the movies" she said. He was a beautiful dog. I took him to an inter-city school classroom to teach kids about dogs, and show them that not all dogs are mean. He made a lot of friends that day. He saved my life once when a pit-bull charged at me, and I saved his when his foot was caught in a steel trap. He lived out his last years on our small farm, guarding the ducks and chickens from the coyotes, possoms, raccoons, owls, hawks, eagles, stray dogs, and cats. I never lost a single bird on his watch!

He was one of those "once in a lifetime" dogs and I would have loved to have a puppy out of him. Not for his outstanding "malemute qualities", but for his outstanding qualities in general. Why are we only allowed to breed dogs for purposes dictated by other people? Shouldn't we have some say in this as the dogs owner?

That said, I think I will no longer sell Pekin ducks unless people either show them or eat them, 'cause that was their original purpose!

 

[love-my-wolves]

Quote:
Sadly, it's the unresponsible people who give the rest of us a bad name. Puppy mills and overridden shelters, on top of poor breeding and breeding just for the heck of it make breeders less likely to sell to anyone without charging a "mint". Maybe they think you plan on charging as much as they want for the pups, and reap the benefits of good stock without paying for it. I'm disheartened by the whole scene. I've been wanting a Pom for a year, all the breeders want $800-$1000 for a PQ pup. Even mix pups are going for $300-500 here, and the shelters are up to $200!!!! I can't even find a free puppy anymore

It's a financial game for most (not all, breeders don't blast me!), who can make the most money. I say walk away and keep looking, someone out there has what you want. Don't get discouraged

 

[bairo]

Quote:
Sadly, it's the unresponsible people who give the rest of us a bad name. Puppy mills and overridden shelters, on top of poor breeding and breeding just for the heck of it make breeders less likely to sell to anyone without charging a "mint". Maybe they think you plan on charging as much as they want for the pups, and reap the benefits of good stock without paying for it. I'm disheartened by the whole scene. I've been wanting a Pom for a year, all the breeders want $800-$1000 for a PQ pup. Even mix pups are going for $300-500 here, and the shelters are up to $200!!!! I can't even find a free puppy anymore

It's a financial game for most (not all, breeders don't blast me!), who can make the most money. I say walk away and keep looking, someone out there has what you want. Don't get discouraged

I agree. It started with a good idea, but then was clouded by some pompousness and greed. I have had 4 GSD's and a Belgium in the past. Currently a GSD not registered that is probably going to be the best ive ever had. I have not looked for belgiums lately, but I would think they would be easier to find. A picture or two of Harley my GSD is on my byc page, along with his best buddy Lucy.

 

[Senna95]

I've looked at the shelters. There are 3 within an hour of me, and I've found NOTHING yet. Young dogs (10 months or less) have a waiting list of 8 to 10 people, despite the $200 adoption fee, and the older ones (most of which are pit-bull or rotweiler cross) I'm afraid to bring home because of my chickens. When I look online, mixed breed puppies are $200+, pure breds are $500, and quality breeders are asking over $1000!!! Could this be a conspiracy?

I feel bad for the older dogs that can't find homes, and I abhore the puppy mills and irresponsible breeders and owners that have put them there. I applaud the spay and neuter efforts and the great strides that have been made. I have lived in Mexico, and would hate to see us regress to the sad state of dog-dom that they have there with hungry, sick strays roaming the streets and eating out of garbage cans. However, I think that we're far passed that. I can't remember the last time I saw an unwanted, sick dog roaming the streets.

The fact that a puppy, any puppy, costs a minimum of $200 to $300 dollars is only an encouragement to the puppy mills at this point, and this "business" will never stop as long as it is so lucrative.

 

[wolftracks]

There are some good points here, but I'm going to step on toes and probably cause trouble. Not posting with this as a goal, it's just a given. I've raised and bred and trained dogs for over 40 years, so here goes. Short as I can keep it and still make since.

I'll probably never have what I had again. I spent 10's of thousands per dog at certain times in my life. I did start with AKC dogs when I was young, but when I was 19 I imported my first dog. His price tag was high, but it was a better time in my life. These days it would be so low for what he was worth and I'm sure I would have spent at least 3 to 4 times more on him today. That is if I could afford it.

Even with AKC registration, which by the way I find so much easier to win with, due to the least amount of work to get that dog to a CH, you have to remember. For generations as a breeder, your name is on that line. What you produce or allow to be produced is your reposibility. By breeding that first litter and placing those pups you have in theory produced hundreds of puppies. It's up to a decent breeder to decide which pups should NOT be bred. It's our job. I've had contracts that people walked away from. Didn't hurt my feelings one bit, so if you decide you don't want to buy from a breeder who has control of breeding rights or does not allow them, then trust me, they don't care. You'll be able to find one someplace, because someone didn't care enough to place their dogs in a home where they should have had a contract. My contract has return clause. If you decide you don't want that dog, it comes back to me and not for what you paid for it. Your purchase of that puppy was with the understanding you would own it for the rest of it's life. Who knows what problems you have to take care of to place it in a new home. Training an untrained or neglected dog is costly and time consuming. If you think you have someone who wants that dog and is willing to enter into my contracts, I'll check them out first. They quailfy, that just saved me some time and probably a lot of money finding a decent home and hopefully there is already a connection between dog and human.

Most of my dogs have come from Germany. They do it sooooo much different there. You won't find a show dog that can not also do the work it was bred for. Every one of my dogs had Championships along with protection, working and obedience titles and sometimes more. It's not just looks in most places besides the USA. Just sayin. So although many of my dogs were also dual registered with AKC and that's where most people thought it was the place to be, that dog needed a minimum of a CD, or as stated in my contract, I take it back. I only had one person try to push through this and his dog was way behind. My contract was legal and valid and when he realized I would hold him to it, he worked his butt off getting it done. Unfortunately he got hooked on it and put a lot of titles on that dog. LOL Don't know if his wife ever forgave me.

Everyone wants tougher laws for breeding and since that's being done through laws across the country, you are going to be paying a small fortune for even a pet quality dog or puppy. That's a given. There are fees and fines envolved now and they continue to grow, so eventually that cute little pet could cost as much as a house. Some already do. If you start really looking into the future of any dogs that will be allowed to be bred, they are pushing for only show dogs. Not working dogs, theraphy dogs, utility dogs. Show dogs! Now there are a lot of show people out there, but most breeders don't show, so eventually they will have to or give up breeding dogs. I think there should be some laws envolved, but even two show dogs, don't always produce another show dog, so the breeders will have to charge more for the pups that have to be sold and altered. My contracts say that this dog and no offspring of it are to ever be sold through pet shops, brokers or sold into a puppy mill and only pups of quality should be sold unaltered. I do allow for my pups to be older, although as laws pass they make the age much younger. I don't think the true quality of a pup even shows until it's out of the gangly teen period. But there ARE too many puppies being bred. Thing is those people can afford to pay all those extra fees, because they turn pups out like corn flakes. So the millers will continue until the stricter, show dogs only, laws pass. Thing is everyone yells we need more laws and don't even know that there are so many already that unless they just don't want future pets, they're just making it harder for them to eventually own one. OK, if you're rich you'll probably be able to, but I think this country thinks poor shouldn't have anything unless they become rich.

OK so I think AKC is a beauty pagent. It's just my opinion and I'm sure it will upset others. Doesn't mean I won't show through them I just don't have the high praising mindset that most have for them. Many breeders though, want those working titles, but they want the whole package. That dog should work and do what it was original bred for and also be an example of it's breed.

Spaying a nuetering are requirements of a dog who is not being shown (pet quality) always! If the dog is a working dog, good work it and when you're able to buy another one, then you can do the same thing. And yes I know there are breeds where you get one or the other. A working dog or a glamour dog. The goal of a good breeder is to only sell to anyone who wants to be serious enough with our lines.

Yes there are greedy breeders. Even in the chicken world!

As for competition from someone who may breed one of your pups later on. I would rather a buyer bet the crap out of me in the ring. It means I did it right. And I don't have to travel and work and train that dog, because I put it in the right hands to do it for me. It's like free advertizing. Do I want someone breeding a pet quality or only working quality pup from me? Heck NO! All I would need is to have someone find out that I allowed less than a quality pup from one of my litters to be bred. It would say to them that I don't care about my breed. I would sell to anyone, never keep track of where my dogs go or what they do. I've never gotten more than 4 litters from one female. They may be able to have more, but I always love my dogs. I'd like to breed to get that special dog that has it all, but not at the risk of my mommas. They work hard raising those pups. Not all are breeding or show quality, so the prices aren't all the same. I will say, if I see something amazing and actually let go of it, you're gonna pay what I would have had to pay and if my reputation as a breeder is a good one, than I don't care who doesn't buy it, I'll have a list of people who are alreasdy looking.

Oh and that show price I saw on here as $1000. I've never bought one that cheap. It's a great price, so jump on it. I have a pet quality dog right now that was more than that and I hate to tell you what I sold pet quality for, but it was a lot more. Then again I didn't always have even one litter a year and I spent a lot of money, I mean a LOT of money getting my dogs to where I wanted them to be, so I don't ever remember making money in the black. They ate better than me, they were housed better than me most times, they helped me with an expensive hobby, so they reaped a lot of benefits from it. I do wish I had made a fortune, I wouldn't be where I am now. I know a lot of people who did get rich from their dogs. I just didn't do that part right I guess.

 

[carolinagirl58]

As frustrating is it may be, I do understand the breeder's concerns. They are not doing it to be greedy, they are doing it in an attempt to insure that only physically correct dogs are allowed to reproduce and to make sure that back-yard breeders and puppy mills are not buying their stock in order to make $$ from breeding them. The breeders have many thousands of dollars and hours invested in their breeding stock in an attempt to improve the lines and it only makes sense that they don't want their kennel name or genetics associated with sub-par puppies. So your options are:

1. buy a puppy from a back-yard breeder who does not have contracts. Of course you understand the dangers of this....temperment problems, bone problems, no life-time breeder support. No contracts though and you can do with him as you please. If you are lucky the dog might even look like the breed it's supposed to be! lol!

2. buy from a reputable breeder and have to jump through whatever hoops they have set out before you. But you also get a lifetime of breeder support, health guarantee, possibility of breeding later on, a dog who will look like it's supposed to look, etc.

3. see if you can locate a working line of dogs since you are interested in herding. I have found that most breeders of working dogs are not quite a strict in their contracts.

4. import one yourself.

I know it's tough but get what you want, even if it means being on a waiting list for a year.

 

[watchdogps]

X2 on the previous two posters.
I will also add that the reaso dogs are supposed to look a certain way has to do with their function. A belgian should have a certain build and coat for a reason and that reason relates to it job. Its not just an arbitrary pretty dog thing. It may not seem that big a deal to breed a dog with conformation faults, but in just a few generations, it can be.

Also, try getting to know some breeders before you go in guns a blazing with plans to breed. As a breeder, it gets my guard up when people already have intent to breed. I don't know them, I don't know their experience. Talk to them about uour home, your experience with dogs, your desire to use the dog to work. Then ease into the option of breeding. You may get a maybe. You still need to agree that if the dog ends up with some flaw that you won't breed, and you may need to agree to a co own. That would require the breeders agreement to breed the dog.

I'm very strict with my breeding agreements as well. It has nothing to do with money. I usually lose money on a litter after all my costs are accounted for. It has everything to do with the fact that I put an enormou s amount of time and effort into these dogs and I'm not going to have someone breed them to garbage, or sell my grandpuppies irresposibly. I have to establish a lot of trust with someone before they get breeding rights.

 

[ChickenfootDuckbutt]

Sad as it is, some breeders are just greedy with their animals, and protecting the lines has NOTHING to do with it, and not just in the dog breeding world, I've seen it in cats,rabbits and even MICE.

On my search for a furture Munchkin cat, I found ONE breeder who sells kittens/adults as breeding stock.

as for Mice, which as funny as it sounds, this one forum I go on, I love it, seriously BUT theres one guy on there, whos a mod mind you, he is just a three letter word for rear end

he literally embodies the stuck up "oh my animals are BETTAR then urs becuz they is be show stockz n urs r crappy petz, NYA!

"

he literally went so far as to call some YOUNG kid on there, mice UGLY because they were pet store-feed bin mice, it made me SO mad, but I didn't say anything.

 

[krcote]

Quote:
This is an excellent and very informative post. I thank you for the time you put into explaining this to the rest of us. Being in the veterinary business and owning adopted and purchased dogs all my life, I value what you have said here.

 

[chickened]

Have you looked at all the websites like kajiji (spelling?) or other free advertising sites? I know CL does not allow dogs selling. There are some backyard breeders out there they are random usually and sell dogs as pet quality. Some breeders do as you describe as a means to seperate themselves from other people who breed dogs... as if they are different (they cull also). You will find a reputable breeder.