Adopting a beagle / Dotson puppy and concerned about interaction with my chickens

[ShrekDawg]

Oh and I forgot to add witg the part about my brother, even though I think he is too strict (or at least, it's his tone and enforcement is too harsh), he listens to him. Maybe there's something to be said for taking charge and having rules.

My dad is wishy washy and will say things a million times and/or change his mind about making him do it when he doesn't listen.

And now he almost 100% of the time comes when I call him to bring him in and gets off the bed when I say off (those used to be his hardest points), he still occasionally takes multiple times saying the command and if it's not an actively training situation he won't necessarily listen except for the above ones. For instance, if he's outside and doesn't want to come in, he won't. But if we are in a training exercise he has perfect recall. And no it's not necessarily just food because I've tried it without it too. As long it's "training" he'll do anything.

But maybe some of it is over using commands or not meaning it?

Should I not give it if I can't enforce it?

Like sometimes I want to pet him and will say come, come on, come here, etc. But i dont really care if he doesn't and usually he won't. Should I only say it for when I actually want it?

I guess words need to have meanings. And consequences for not listening?

 

[Beekissed]

And so I guess he mostly needs consistancy and rules? And of course being knocked down a peg.

him....

But do you think if we start ignoring him and stop fawning over him every second while also establishing rules and who's in charge he can change?

And maybe exercise? He doesn't get exercise.

Yes.

But maybe some of it is over using commands or not meaning it?

Should I not give it if I can't enforce it?

Like sometimes I want to pet him and will say come, come on, come here, etc. But i dont really care if he doesn't and usually he won't. Should I only say it for when I actually want it?

I guess words need to have meanings. And consequences for not listening?

Give those Cesar Milan videos a good watch and see what he says about all of that. Your dog rules the house and all the people in it, I'm afraid...even your brother. That all needs to be reversed and everyone needs to be in on it if this dog will be changed. Someone needs to take charge and it has to be anyone but the dog.

Unless you all are on board with changing the dog, I'm afraid you'll not be able to do it.

 

[ShrekDawg]

And so I guess he mostly needs consistancy and rules? And of course being knocked down a peg.


 him....


But do you think if we start ignoring him and stop fawning over him every second while also establishing rules and who's in charge he can change?

And maybe exercise? He doesn't get exercise.

Yes. 

But maybe some of it is over using commands or not meaning it?


Should I not give it if I can't enforce it?


Like sometimes I want to pet him and will say come, come on, come here, etc. But i dont really care if he doesn't and usually he won't. Should I only say it for when I actually want it?


I guess words need to have meanings. And consequences for not listening?

Give those Cesar Milan videos a good watch and see what he says about all of that.  Your dog rules the house and all the people in it, I'm afraid...even your brother.  That all needs to be reversed and everyone needs to be in on it if this dog will be changed.  Someone needs to take charge and it has to be anyone but the dog.    Unless you all are on board with changing the dog, I'm afraid you'll not be able to do it. 

Thanks for your help! I'll watch some of those videos!

Thankfully he doesn't really have any true behavior problems anymore (he used to resource guard some but grew out of it/training worked i guess) but he's just annoying and needy. He can't even go lay down. Which i guess iz a behavior problem in itself.

So I'll work on changing it.

My dad thinks all my rules are mean and he's "too cute."

For instance, tried to establish he stays out of the kitchen when we eat. Somewhat on board now but that was sooo mean.

No feeding him from the table (or putting food in his bowl when we eat).

He does that all the time and gets mad when we get mad at him for it.

No dog in bed.

"But I like sleeping with him. He's my comfort dog!"

:/

 

[thegyrlie]

Thanks for all this great advise and the pics of your pup @Beekissed

 

[rosemarythyme]

Oh and I forgot to add witg the part about my brother, even though I think he is too strict (or at least, it's his tone and enforcement is too harsh), he listens to him. Maybe there's something to be said for taking charge and having rules.

My dad is wishy washy and will say things a million times and/or change his mind about making him do it when he doesn't listen.

And now he almost 100% of the time comes when I call him to bring him in and gets off the bed when I say off (those used to be his hardest points), he still occasionally takes multiple times saying the command and if it's not an actively training situation he won't necessarily listen except for the above ones. For instance, if he's outside and doesn't want to come in, he won't. But if we are in a training exercise he has perfect recall. And no it's not necessarily just food because I've tried it without it too. As long it's "training" he'll do anything.

But maybe some of it is over using commands or not meaning it?

Should I not give it if I can't enforce it?

Like sometimes I want to pet him and will say come, come on, come here, etc. But i dont really care if he doesn't and usually he won't. Should I only say it for when I actually want it?

I guess words need to have meanings. And consequences for not listening?

Obviously each trainer or owner has their own approach. IMO positive reinforcement is always better than negative. And exercise is a must if you want a calm, relaxed dog. Letting a dog loose in a yard is NOT exercise. They really have to be walked.

But consistency is key. It's confusing to a dog why one time they're allowed to be in the kitchen and another time they're not.

You also might be overusing commands (since it's established your dog knows what "come" means). For example, "come" is a command that many dogs get burnt out on, because many owners will repeat it endlessly and after a while the dog ignores it since it's lost it's meaning to them. My male dog is very good about "come" but my female Akita mix is terrible at it, so the trainers I've worked with suggested finding a different command for when I really mean it. So she still gets "come" when she's just messing around in the yard and it's not really urgent, but she gets "Let's go!" if I really mean it. The reward is always a cookie and/or a good vigorous neck scratching for "Let's go!" and the negative is... well she gets stuck dragging around a long line for a few days if she's being bad about it. But I make it a point to not repeat "Let's go" over and over. Same with sit, down, etc. - you give the command once, and they should do it (she's gotten much better with those since they're easier to reinforce).

 

[ShrekDawg]

Oh and I forgot to add witg the part about my brother, even though I think he is too strict (or at least, it's his tone and enforcement is too harsh), he listens to him. Maybe there's something to be said for taking charge and having rules.


My dad is wishy washy and will say things a million times and/or change his mind about making him do it when he doesn't listen.


And now he almost 100% of the time comes when I call him to bring him in and gets off the bed when I say off (those used to be his hardest points), he still occasionally takes multiple times saying the command and if it's not an actively training situation he won't necessarily listen except for the above ones. For instance, if he's outside and doesn't want to come in, he won't. But if we are in a training exercise he has perfect recall. And no it's not necessarily just food because I've tried it without it too. As long it's "training" he'll do anything.


But maybe some of it is over using commands or not meaning it?


Should I not give it if I can't enforce it?


Like sometimes I want to pet him and will say come, come on, come here, etc. But i dont really care if he doesn't and usually he won't. Should I only say it for when I actually want it?


I guess words need to have meanings. And consequences for not listening?

Obviously each trainer or owner has their own approach.  IMO positive reinforcement is always better than negative.  And exercise is a must if you want a calm, relaxed dog.  Letting a dog loose in a yard is NOT exercise.  They really have to be walked.

But consistency is key.  It's confusing to a dog why one time they're allowed to be in the kitchen and another time they're not. 

You also might be overusing commands (since it's established your dog knows what "come" means).  For example, "come" is a command that many dogs get burnt out on, because many owners will repeat it endlessly and after a while the dog ignores it since it's lost it's meaning to them.  My male dog is very good about "come" but my female Akita mix is terrible at it, so the trainers I've worked with suggested finding a different command for when I really mean it.  So she still gets "come" when she's just messing around in the yard and it's not really urgent, but she gets "Let's go!" if I really mean it.  The reward is always a cookie and/or a good vigorous neck scratching for "Let's go!" and the negative is... well she gets stuck dragging around a long line for a few days if she's being bad about it.  But I make it a point to not repeat "Let's go" over and over.  Same with sit, down, etc. - you give the command once, and they should do it (she's gotten much better with those since they're easier to reinforce). 

Yeah, I used to use mostly positive reinforcement but I haven't really done any training with him lately cause I've been lazy :/ it's been great though, he learned a lot of manners and really calmed down. But it can also be bad because sometimes he only listens if I have a reward or punishment and he chooses when he wants to listen. I hear that's common for his breed though.

I'd like him to listen because I say. But he listens now. Only took 2 times for "off" today. And he actually did start moving the first time but then he hesitates at the edge of the bed like do you really mean this? Then gets off. This is an improvement to before cause you used to growl at me and no one else. Well, actually that was if you went to grab his collar. He had to have food to get off. But I did a couple training exercises making him jump up then right back off several times and now he's really good

Anyway, yeah, consistency and exercise are key I suppose. He sleeps all day so I didn't think he needs exercise but he really does.

I've been playing more now which wears him out.

And I should note our yard isn't fenced so he goes out with a long rope. So today he was laying on the deck and after I said come several times and he didn't listen (normally he comes the first time or 2-3 at most, today he didnt want to), so I just went and grabbed his rope and he knows I mean it and gets up.

Maybe I will start saying it (or finding a new word) once and then grab the rope if he doesn't listen?

I never gave any correction with the rope or anything but the reason it works is because a while ago now I started this new thing where if he didn't listen I would slowly start reeling him in lol and back then his rope was longer and he hated it so he came lol

I also did work with come and gave him a reward for coming all of which is why he's much better but not perfect now.

I need to start actively training him again - he was making a lot of progress when I was training him and consistently reinforcing the rules and now we don't.

But yes, my dad especially says things a million times. I try not to most of the time but still do sometimes. But I have told my dad over and over that he needs to say it once and wait for him to do it and if he doesn't after a few seconds, say it again or correct, etc. And that the reason he doesn't respect him is because he says things over and over and doesn't mean it. And he also says it then changes his mind just because he doesn't listen rather than making him listen. But he just gets mad.

And for example, like I said, if he doesn't come I would go down and get him so now he does. Whereas my dad will stand on the deck and cal and call and call and won't go grab the rope or heck, sometimes he even says "you wanna stay out here, fine" instead of I called you, you need to listen. And Gator knows this. So he doesn't listen to anything he says. He used to listen to him and not me now it's the other way around cause of the time I have put into him previously.

But now he's getting bad about listening again, I really need to consistently work with him and exercise him too

 

[rosemarythyme]

Quote:
So your rope is essentially like the long line I use. If things are going mostly well you can probably allow him to drag it around and go where he pleases (under supervision, as he can get it snagged on something), but if he's not listening you can just grab it and reel him in instead of trying to chase him down.

If you think your dog has burned out on "come" you can try a new word or phrase, whatever is easy for you to remember. Just train it as you would train the come command, using a leash then moving to a long rope and reeling him in. Remember to say it firmly, don't overuse it ("come come come come come"), and reward when the dog comes to you. Never call a dog to you and then yell at it or punish it, as it will associate "come" with bad things.

Probably doesn't help if everyone in your family can't get on the same page as far as training, but it's a step in the right direction if you can get your dog to consistently return to you when you give the command. My husband is terrible with commands (he once told me it was up to me to train the dogs... but it doesn't work like that!) and the dogs were jumping and barking whenever he tried to feed them, but I've been working with him on being firm and calm and not budging when the dogs aren't listening. Though I admit I cheat and help stare the dogs down when they're getting too worked up. They won't mess with me when I'm glaring at them!

And if you prefer to toss a ball for fetch or working your dog in other ways, instead of walking on a leash, yes that counts as exercise too. I shouldn't have made it sound like walks were the only option, though most dogs do like to get out and sniff around the neighborhood.

 

[dainerra]

adding to the above post. you actually taught him to NOT come. Never give a command more than once. Otherwise, you teach them to tone you out until however many times you repeast it before issuing a correction or going to get them. " *Name* COME!" if the dog doesn't immediately start moving towards you, start reeling them in. (At this point I agree, choose another command than "come" I use "Here") Never use the command until you are either 1) able to physically enforce immediate compliance or 2) been training in that exact environment enough to trust 100% obedience to the command.

 

[ShrekDawg]

So your rope is essentially like the long line I use.  If things are going mostly well you can probably allow him to drag it around and go where he pleases (under supervision, as he can get it snagged on something), but if he's not listening you can just grab it and reel him in instead of trying to chase him down. 

If you think your dog has burned out on "come" you can try a new word or phrase, whatever is easy for you to remember.  Just train it as you would train the come command, using a leash then moving to a long rope and reeling him in.  Remember to say it firmly, don't overuse it ("come come come come come"), and reward when the dog comes to you.  Never call a dog to you and then yell at it or punish it, as it will associate "come" with bad things.

Probably doesn't help if everyone in your family can't get on the same page as far as training, but it's a step in the right direction if you can get your dog to consistently return to you when you give the command.  My husband is terrible with commands (he once told me it was up to me to train the dogs... but it doesn't work like that!) and the dogs were jumping and barking whenever he tried to feed them, but I've been working with him on being firm and calm and not budging when the dogs aren't listening.  Though I admit I cheat and help stare the dogs down when they're getting too worked up.  They won't mess with me when I'm glaring at them!

And if you prefer to toss a ball for fetch or working your dog in other ways, instead of walking on a leash, yes that counts as exercise too.  I shouldn't have made it sound like walks were the only option, though most dogs do like to get out and sniff around the neighborhood.

adding to the above post.   you actually taught him to NOT come.    Never give a command more than once.     Otherwise, you teach them to tone you out until however many times you repeast it before issuing a correction or going to get them.       " *Name* COME!" if the dog doesn't immediately start moving towards you, start reeling them in.  (At this point I agree, choose another command than "come"    I use "Here")    Never use the command until you are either 1) able to physically enforce immediate compliance or 2) been training in that exact environment enough to trust 100% obedience to the command.

Thank you both! The rope is pretty long and is tied to the deck in the backyard. There's nit really anything to get snagged on although he does manage to get wrapped around the one red maple or bush fairly often as he goes in the outskirts to poo. :/ at least he doesn't go in the lawn lol but he barks and then we go get him. He used to unwrap himself but now we have to do it. We probably taught him that one too but we don't mind so much. Sometimes he wraps himself pretty good.

Yeah, I think we will work on a new command at this point!

And yeah, my dad actually said the same thing! I should be in charge of the training/I do such a good job training him. Yeah okay but EVERYONE needs to do it. They all agreed to do as I say but then he doesn't listen to a word I say and argues it.... and my other brother thinks dog should be out whenever we sit at the island, not just when we eat, which I say isn't fair because we sit in here quite a lot and his food bowl is in here. And my mom just doesn't care to train him or work with him.

But I can at least get him to listen to me.

And yeah, he loves to play tug and lately I've been incorporating some running. He usually only runs to a toy once or twice, sometimes a few times if he's energetic LOL, so I do that (he doesn't bring it back and likes you to try to get it). I also will take the toy or rope and wave it in front of his face and get him to chase it. And a little rough housing. Short session of that and he's usually worn out hahaha he used to love keep away and to run run run but then he had an injury so we just did tug and light stuff for a while so I think he figured out that that was wayyy easier. He is lazy lol plus of course that was summer 2014 and so he's older now. 5 in March.

And hmmm yeah, we definitely taught him not to.

But also, question.

My dad keeps saying, and I've read, that his breed isn't the best at obedience because they were bred to think independently and also that sometimes they choose to do their job over listening to you so sometimes he gets away with not. Now, if he was actually protecting a flock or herd I might be okay with occasional disobedience if, say, there was a coyote that I couldn't see that he ran off to get. But as a pet and being half Lab, should he listen every time? Or even if he was a true LGD, should they listen every time or is occasional disobedience okay?

Just now I let him out and he was barking like crazy at something. Let him bark a bit then went to get him, by this point he had stopped and was standing there, I called him. The first few times he totally ignored me. Finally he looked at me for a few seconds so I kept saying it. Looked away and SAT DOWN. Willful disobedience, right? Or no? THEN. I say COME again, this time firmer, and he freaking LIES DOWN. I just gave up after that as I didn't have shoes on and was calling from the door. Plus I thought well if there's a threat, I guess he's doing his job. Whatever. Except I'm kind of mad he LOOKED AT ME (so I know he heard me) AND SPECIFICALLY CHOSETO IGNORE AND DISOBEY ME.

THEN.

To make it worse, he started barking again a little bit later so my mom went out and called him a couple times but she couldn't see him and thought he was deaf. So I went out and see him walking into view again so I call a few times. Ignores me. He had found something to eat though (I think an old bone or hoof maybe?) and so was eating it and choosing to ignore me. Yet again. Two times in a row now.

I realize I should have had shoes on and been able to enforce it. But the majority of the time, he listens to me. But when he doesn't want to or he knows you can't or won't enforce it, he DOES NOT.

I guess my question is do you think part of it is him choosing to do his job over listening and therefore it's whatever or do you think he just wanted to stay out/was being a brat? And no matter which one it is, should I train that out too or just leave it?

 

[ShrekDawg]

Oh and update, he just came to the door, maybe had been there a few minutes as he was lying down. He comes to the door and barks when he's ready to come in, which is very smart of him, and normally I don't mind that, he can stay out as long as he wants, but sometimes I want him to come in when I want him to, not when he wants to. Or even if I don't want him to come in (which I think he knows is why we usually calls him and so often ignores when he doesn't want to come in), shouldn't he at least listen and come when I call him?