Ameraucana leg color or ear lobe color to determine egg shell color?

[MyLittleRedCoop]

I've got 3 Easter Egger / Ameraucana hens that I got at our feed store this spring. All 3 have the ear muffs and the "beard". Lol. I call them my bearded ladies.
One has started laying gorgeous pale blue eggs. She's got willow green legs and mostly white earlobes.
The other two also have willow green legs, but red earlobes. What color will they lay? I keep hearing different things.
For the future, if I want more blue eggs, should I only take the fertile blue ones or could other non-blue eggs from EE girls still produce a blue layer? I have a mixed flock, with a Buff Brahma, a Speckled Sussex and a Welsummer roo. (They get along great, as they were all brooded together). Or will I only get blue eggs if I have an EE roo?
Thanks!

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I've got 3 Easter Egger / Ameraucana hens that I got at our feed store this spring. All 3 have the ear muffs and the "beard". Lol. I call them my bearded ladies.
One has started laying gorgeous pale blue eggs. She's got willow green legs and mostly white earlobes.
The other two also have willow green legs, but red earlobes. What color will they lay? I keep hearing different things.
For the future, if I want more blue eggs, should I only take the fertile blue ones or could other non-blue eggs from EE girls still produce a blue layer? I have a mixed flock, with a Buff Brahma, a Speckled Sussex and a Welsummer roo. (They get along great, as they were all brooded together). Or will I only get blue eggs if I have an EE roo?
Thanks!

First, they are Easter Eggers, since they came from a feed store and have green legs.

I would guess that your lady with the white earlobes is a Leghorn cross, so her genetics are a blue egg gene X white egg gene, the blue is dominant so she lays blue eggs.

Your other ladies with their red earlobes sound like they have some Plymouth Rock in their backgrounds (or some other brown egg layer). They probably have a brown egg coating gene and a blue egg gene and will most likely lay green eggs. They also have a slight chance of laying brown or pinkish eggs.

You will get a mix of egg colors from their offspring, since the hens carry the blue egg gene which is dominant. With your brown egg layer roos, you should get approx. 50% brown egg layers and 50% green egg layers. (This is predicated on the assumption that your red-earlobed hens lay green eggs. If they lay brown eggs, you'll get 100% brown egg layers from the crossing.) With your Welsummer, you'll make Olive Eggers.

If you want blue eggs and not green ones, you'll need an EE roo or a white egg layer roo crossed with your blue egg laying hen.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

What happens if you have an EE rooster over a brown layer?

If he came from a green egg?

If he came from a blue egg?

Does it end up all brown or is there a possiblity of brown or green?

Curious (have 2nd generation EE mixes that came from brown egg layers and EE roo)...the pullets have red ears (what looks to be a Wyandotte/EE and Welsummer/EE) and one has white ears (Sumatra/EE).

EE roo from blue egg, heterozygous--assume w (white) and Bl (blue) genes OR he could have gotten a br (brown gene) and a white gene. If he got a blue gene, you'll get 50% wbr (brown egg layer) and 50% Blbr (green egg layer). If he didn't get a Bl, you'll get 50% brbr and 50% wbr, so varying shades of brown.

EE roo from green egg, may be heterozygous--br x Bl, might be homozygous brbr since he could have gotten a brown egg gene from mother and/or father. You'll get 50% brbr (brown egg layers) and 50% Blbr (green egg layers) OR you'll get 100% brown egg layers.

So no matter what color of egg your rooster came from, you'll either get 50% brown and 50% green egg layers or 100% brown egg layers.

What will change with whether he came from a green or blue egg is the shade of green you get, with darker brown egg laying mamas making more olive eggs and lighter brown egg laying mamas making paler green eggs. Also, if the rooster hatched from a blue egg, you're more likely to get those gorgeous sea-foam green eggs when crossed with a light brown egg laying mama.

Does all that make sense?
(Also, I really hope I didn't get confused somewhere in all this trying to keep it straight in my head. If I have a chance, I'll work it out on paper and report back)

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Yes...I think so...

I understand the underlying concept of how one gene pair from dad and one gene pair from mom mix and match...and you have to work out the variations with a gene chart (punnett square?).


I just haven't read exactly what genes do what for chicken characteristics and tend to get lost in the long listings of all the things that do this or that.

Thanks for simplifying this aspect...I'm slowly getting this stuff into my head.

Bottomline...If I'm lucky I have a 50/50 chance of green or brown eggs from these pullets....or 100% chance of brown if not so lucky. (If they lay well...I'm happy...color is fun...and I'll eventually get that.)

These chicks came from my grab bag of eggs that were supposed to be from pure layer breeds...but I'm finding a guessing game of genes as an EE roo was obviously involved (warned they "might" have some "Ameraucana" in them). Will be fun to see what they lay when they lay. They all hatched from beige to brown eggs.

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain.

Lady of McCamley

Egg color genetics are far and away the easiest thing to understand about chicken genetics. The long lists of what's dominant and what's not also make my head spin, especially on feather color genetics.

Here's a good explanation of Mendelian genetics at a middle school level. http://www.exploringnature.org/db/detail.php?dbID=22&detID=2290

The egg color genetics work as straight Mendelian on a Punnett Square, but are much more sophisticated on a molecular level (isn't everything?). Luckily, the way it works out you can still use the Punnett Square even with the fact that some of the genes are co-dominant (work together, instead of one simply overpowering the other) because of the way the genes work together.

Here's the basics on what you need to know about egg color genetics:

• The different version of a gene are called alleles. Some alleles are dominant and some are recessive. A dominant gene always expresses itself and hides the recessive gene. In genetics, the dominant gene is written as a capital letter and the recessive as lower case. They should both be the same letter technically, and I should write B for blue and b for white since the blue is dominant over the white, but I think it's easier to see if I use more intuitive abbreviations.
• There are two main egg shell colors, (w)hite and (Bl)ue. I've capitalized the B in blue because it is a dominant gene and always expresses itself over white.
• There is a coating gene for the (Br)own egg. A brown egg is a white shell with a brown coating. If the brown coating is present, it always expresses itself. It doesn't matter whether a blue shell gene or a white shell gene is present since the coating gene is in addition to the shell color gene (no dominance comes into play, it's just whether the gene is there or not). However, since blue always trumps white, you can just ignore the white gene and say a brown egg is Br (capitalized because it's dominant, too). That makes the Punnet Square really easy to fill out (if not technically correct).
• A blue egg is a straight-up blue egg shell. Because the blue is dominant, you know that birds genes are either BlBl or Blw, as either combination will express as blue.
• A green egg is a blue shell with that brown coating. It has to be BlBr.

Therefore, you first have to make some assumptions about your EE roo. I am going to assume that he has one copy of the Blue egg gene and one of the brown coating gene. I'm assuming he has a blue gene because if he didn't also have the pea comb and beard (associated with the blue egg gene 98% of the time) you wouldn't call him an EE. So your EE Rooster = Bl x Br

Your Wyandotte (BrBr) and Welsummer (BbBr) x EE (BlBr) crosses will both have the same 50-50 chances to either be:
Br X Br OR Br x Bl

Your Sumatra (ww) X EE has a 50-50 chance to be:
Br x w OR BL x w

Put those geneotypes into the Punnett Squares as described on the links I gave you and you'll see it's pretty easy.

Of course, this is why I always sell my EE roos and only use Ameraucana roos for breeding my colored egg layers. It makes the genetics sooooo much simpler!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Another thing that complicates this is that there is not one brown gene. Last I heard there were 13 different genes recognized that affect the shade of brown when they are present and who knows how many unrecognized ones. Then you have all the dominant-recessive, co-dominant, partially dominant and all that so how one gene acts can depend not only on dominant recessive but on what else is there. One of those 13 recognized is sex linked.

I agree with you though, egg shell color genetics are simpler and more straightforward than feather genetics. There are so many melanizers, diluters, and other modifiers that every time I learn something on feather color or pattern someone comes up with an exception.

By the way, there is no genetic link to earlobe color and egg shell color. With most purebreds bred in accordance with the SOP, the red earlobes = brown eggs and white earlobes = white eggs I generally true. That’s probably where that came from. But Penedesenca have white earlobes and lay dark brown eggs and Phoenix have red earlobes and lay white or tinted eggs. There are other examples where that “rule” doesn’t hold with purebreds. When you get to crossbreds that rule certainly doesn’t hold. I have mutt hens with white earlobes that lay brown eggs, sometime fairly dark brown.

Similarly there is no link from leg color to egg shell color. I once had a yellow legged hen that laid a pretty mint-green egg.

There is a possible genetic link though that you can use. It’s not 100% but it’s pretty good. The blue egg gene and the pea comb gene are real close together on the DNA. They are so close together that one of the experts on here that I really trust said there is a 97% chance that if the pea comb gene is given to an offspring, the blue egg gene will also. For this 97% to mean anything the chicken needs to be split for both the pea comb gene and the blue egg gene and the other chicken can’t have either the pea comb or blue egg gene. Also the two genes need to be linked to start with. Otherwise the odds get all messed up.

Where this comes in handy is with the rooster. You can tell if the hen has the blue egg gene by looking at her eggs. Roosters don’t lay eggs. If you have what is supposed to be an EE rooster and he has a pea comb, the odds are pretty good he has a copy of the blue egg gene unless one of his parents that lays brown or white eggs (or has the genetics for brown or white eggs) also has a pea comb.

It gets even better. The pea comb gene is one of those partially dominant genes. If the chicken is pure for the pea comb gene, both copies at that gene pair on the DNA are pea cob, the chicken will have a pea comb. But if the chickens is split for the pea comb (has only one copy) you will get a wonky pea comb. You’ll still see the effects of the pea comb gene but it won’t look right. Probably some extra growth to make it a little higher. So if you have a chicken with a pure pea comb, it probably has two copies of the blue egg gene too. That’s good to know when you are selecting your breeders.

This being chicken genetics there has to be a complicating factor. If you have the rose comb gene in the mix, that will also affect what the comb looks like. Rose + pea gives you walnut. Plus there are modifiers that can give you a wonky looking comb anyway, such as the modifier for a buttercup comb. It’s not always as straight forward as I made it sound a couple of paragraphs up, but the 97% rule can be a powerful tool in helping you select your breeders.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

If she finds an EE rooster with blue egg genes she will get pullets that lay blue eggs. If the EE rooster came from a green egg his genes will most likely produce pullets that lay every color but blue - green ( of varying shades ) brown or pink (which is just pale brown)

What happens if you have an EE rooster over a brown layer?

If he came from a green egg?

If he came from a blue egg?

Does it end up all brown or is there a possiblity of brown or green?

Curious (have 2nd generation EE mixes that came from brown egg layers and EE roo)...the pullets have red ears (what looks to be a Wyandotte/EE and Welsummer/EE) and one has white ears (Sumatra/EE).

 

[enola]

If she finds an EE rooster with blue egg genes she will get pullets that lay blue eggs. If the EE rooster came from a green egg his genes will most likely produce pullets that lay every color but blue - green ( of varying shades ) brown or pink (which is just pale brown)

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Another thing that complicates this is that there is not one brown gene. Last I heard there were 13 different genes recognized that affect the shade of brown when they are present and who knows how many unrecognized ones. Then you have all the dominant-recessive, co-dominant, partially dominant and all that so how one gene acts can depend not only on dominant recessive but on what else is there. One of those 13 recognized is sex linked.

I agree with you though, egg shell color genetics are simpler and more straightforward than feather genetics. There are so many melanizers, diluters, and other modifiers that every time I learn something on feather color or pattern someone comes up with an exception.

By the way, there is no genetic link to earlobe color and egg shell color. With most purebreds bred in accordance with the SOP, the red earlobes = brown eggs and white earlobes = white eggs I generally true. That’s probably where that came from. But Penedesenca have white earlobes and lay dark brown eggs and Phoenix have red earlobes and lay white or tinted eggs. There are other examples where that “rule” doesn’t hold with purebreds. When you get to crossbreds that rule certainly doesn’t hold. I have mutt hens with white earlobes that lay brown eggs, sometime fairly dark brown.

Similarly there is no link from leg color to egg shell color. I once had a yellow legged hen that laid a pretty mint-green egg.

There is a possible genetic link though that you can use. It’s not 100% but it’s pretty good. The blue egg gene and the pea comb gene are real close together on the DNA. They are so close together that one of the experts on here that I really trust said there is a 97% chance that if the pea comb gene is given to an offspring, the blue egg gene will also. For this 97% to mean anything the chicken needs to be split for both the pea comb gene and the blue egg gene and the other chicken can’t have either the pea comb or blue egg gene. Also the two genes need to be linked to start with. Otherwise the odds get all messed up.

Where this comes in handy is with the rooster. You can tell if the hen has the blue egg gene by looking at her eggs. Roosters don’t lay eggs. If you have what is supposed to be an EE rooster and he has a pea comb, the odds are pretty good he has a copy of the blue egg gene unless one of his parents that lays brown or white eggs (or has the genetics for brown or white eggs) also has a pea comb.

It gets even better. The pea comb gene is one of those partially dominant genes. If the chicken is pure for the pea comb gene, both copies at that gene pair on the DNA are pea cob, the chicken will have a pea comb. But if the chickens is split for the pea comb (has only one copy) you will get a wonky pea comb. You’ll still see the effects of the pea comb gene but it won’t look right. Probably some extra growth to make it a little higher. So if you have a chicken with a pure pea comb, it probably has two copies of the blue egg gene too. That’s good to know when you are selecting your breeders.

This being chicken genetics there has to be a complicating factor. If you have the rose comb gene in the mix, that will also affect what the comb looks like. Rose + pea gives you walnut. Plus there are modifiers that can give you a wonky looking comb anyway, such as the modifier for a buttercup comb. It’s not always as straight forward as I made it sound a couple of paragraphs up, but the 97% rule can be a powerful tool in helping you select your breeders.

Oh I knew it was being simplified for me...and I know that I am asking about mutts...where the toss of the genes could bring out a lot of different things...and most likely brown eggs and not fun colors.

One interesting thing. The mutt that I've calculated must be a Welsummer/EE mix...has what I can best describe as "eye brows" ....not truly but you get the idea....she has some feathers just above her eyes that give her a brow over each...I've no idea what that would be called on a chicken....but I'm sure there is a term. And she has a funky comb type. I would classify it as a single comb....but she's got practically nothing until her crown where it spikes up. At first I wondered if she would get a buttercup, but it hasn't rounded out into a cup or anything, yet. It is still small at 17 weeks of age.

Anyway, I know she has a lot of competing genes in her. I probably should name her Heinz...she's tall like a Leghorn but has the muted coloring of a Welsummer (salmon chest/brown back, penciling), bright yellow legs, and a mahogany haze overlay on her body and a patterned gold overlay in her hackles. I originally thought she looked exactly like my Welsummer/RIR mix ( bought from a breeder), but as she grew she continues to amaze me by what else is in her. She has a red ear lobe, so it will be interesting to see what she lays.

I enjoy the genetics discussion and I thank you all for slowing it down bite by bite for me...even if they are useful lies. We all have to begin somewhere.

Lady of McCamley

 

[Ridgerunner]

Both. A rooster contributes a full set of genes to all his offspring. A hen contributes a full set to her boys but withholds the sex linked genes from her daughters. That’s what makes them girls. I don’t have a clue if any of the egglaying genes are sex linked or not, so I’d assume each contributes equally. If there is a sex linked gene involved, the rooster will contribute more.

Since a rooster doesn’t lay eggs it’s a bit uncertain exactly what he is contributing. That’s why you normally look at the hen for egg contribution. At least you know what you are getting from her. I’d think a leghorn over an EE or Ameraucana would really help the egglaying of the offspring and would contribute to keeping the eggs blue.

JVeith, I think you are on the right track. Like WOS said, that rooster will contribute white and you can see what the hen is contributing by her egg. So if you hatch blue eggs from that cross, you should get some blue egg layers. The correct genetic symbol fort the blue egg gene is capital “O”, for the white gene a small case “o” so I’ll use those. Assuming you only hatch blue eggs and the leghorn is the daddy:

The hen might be pure for the blue egg gene, or OO. If she is, she will give a blue gene to all her offspring. The leghorn rooster is oo and will give all offspring an o. Using the Punnett Squares you get every offspring will get Oo, so the pullets will all lay blue eggs.

If the hen is split Oo, she will still lay a blue egg but half her offspring will be Oo and half will be oo. So half her pullets will lay blue eggs and half will lay white. As long as you hatch blue or green eggs, you always have at least a 50% chance the pullets will lay a blue or green egg even if the rooster only contributes white.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Hmmm... Ok. Yeah, that was my next line of research, was to find out more about the personality of the Leghorns. I remembered looking at the breed a bit, but couldn't remember why it didn't pass muster for getting into my top 10 preferred breeds. That aggression would likely be why. (Also why I don't have any RIRs in my flock, despite loving the "red" color.)

My first batch of straight runs just finished maturing, and I finally finished up my "rooster selection process" about a month ago. I got a straight run of 17, of several breed types and did exactly what you suggested. I figured with that many, I would have a good chance of finding a couple good roos. (Primary and "back-up" in case something happened to the primary) I had them all banded and kept a tally of breed-specific traits along with a personal record of "wrong-doings" (human-oriented aggression, hen-oriented aggression). So far, I'm pretty pleased with the roos I picked (and the one we've eaten so far, was pretty tasty!) But I was SO ready for the stinkers to be gone when the time came!! I have no tolerance for aggression. When I have room for another roo, I can give it a try and see if any of the Leghorns are keepers. If not, I'll have a freezer full of chicken. Win-win, right?

I wish there was a reliable EE breeder near me... Getting a good blue-gened (blue-jeaned? lol!!) EE roo would be great, as I could have all kinds of blues and greens that way. I could get a dozen straight run EEs, as chicks, but I wouldn't know which roo would have the right parentage...?

So, say I have the leghorn roo and a blue-laying EE... If I take the fertile eggs (only the blue EE ones) and let a broody hatch them... Theoretically, then, any resulting roo would be able to be crossed with a white layer or an EE and make blue eggs? Assuming I separate the brown laying roos from the EEs for a month before collecting the eggs?

Sounds to me like you're doing it right. If I lived near you, I'd buy EEs from you!

I think YOU'RE becoming the breeder that you're looking for.

As far as separating your hens, you're right. Separate for 2-3 weeks before introducing your favored roo. Doesn't matter if you remove the roos or separate the hens.

Also, three things come to mind for your EE problem.
First, where in the world are you? I just hatched a batch of blue and black Ameraucanas simply to get the roosters I wanted for my breeding program. I have six, and will be selling at least four. If you're close, or you are coming to the Ohio National Poultry Show (it's in my backyard, practically) I will sell you one cheap.

Secondly, do you ever get any broody hens? I've found that I get really great hatches from shipped eggs under a broody hen. You can talk to Ameraucana breeders on the Ameraucana thread here on BYC, and many will be willing to ship you out some eggs quickly after a lady goes broody for you. I paid $35/dozen including shipping, which was a good price. Then, you have your reliable source of blue egg genetics and you can take it from there.

Finally, you can search out an Ameraucana breeder near you. One of the best ways to identify a "real" Ameraucana breeder is if they tell you the color of the birds up front. In other words, "Americana chickens lay blue and green eggs" are likely to be Easter Eggers. "Wheaten Ameraucanas" are much more likely to be purebred. Then, ask the breeder what lines he/she used in their breeding program. They should know, and if they mention a feed store or a hatchery you'll know they really have EEs.

If you can get actual Ameraucana roosters, it simplifies your breeding program immensely because anything you breed to them will throw a green or blue egg.