Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[Arctic Chick]

Sorry, but this is hogwash. There are so many reasons but I just don't have the time to go into it all - again. Look back a few pages and I commented briefly on this subject already. Specifically about the genetics being a determinative factor. Moreover, what is with this "don't let anybody tell you different"?

IMO, that's about the worse advice anyone can ever give. My advice... talk to the experts. Do your homework and be humble enough to learn about the breed! Learn the History. Learn from those who put so much time, effort, expense, dedication, and commitment into the breed. One of the great things about the Ameraucana is that it is a fairly new BREED. Not just variety but breed. One should start with a little understanding of what the foundation was for the criteria in calling an Ameraucana an Ameraucana.

God Bless,

I hear your point Tailfeathers, I have read every post on this thread... took me months!

My opinion is that it is still an Ameraucana, I just wouldn't recommend showing it at Nationals. I bred zebra finches, which is complicated to understand the color mutations, dilutions, lethal genes, ect. to archive perfect birds in color and form and to create new colors (Very difficult

). Although some birds did not meet a standard, they in fact were zebra finches. Creating new colors many would not come out as standard. I could breed these non standard birds into beautiful zebra finches, to standard, using the genetics already in the bird itself, just choosing the right concoction of genetics to breed it with. (correct the flaws) Yet zebra finches breed true unlike Ameraucanas, so I can see the time and effort you'd have to put into correcting genetic flaws in Ameraucanas as it is a new breed. Just knowing about genetics is more than half the battle, so if you take a fine bird and keep breeding to better birds you'll have the best birds down the road. It just depends on where you would like to start in the program. I would like to make my own line of Ameraucanas one day, far into the future I have begun.

Thank you kindly for your opinion! I do appreciate every-ones and can understand both sides of the EE saga. God bless.

 

[heatherscooby77]

The more people who do not have "Ameraucanas" the higher the demand for the "real deal" Ameraucanas. Not only that, people are working on many project colors in Ameraucanas and I have seen them sell these "project Ameraucana" as Real Ameraucanas. Just because it is not the standard color, does not make it an EE, lol. It just is an Ameraucana that is not of standard color. This would mean Self Blue/Lavender, Buff, Splash, ect. are really EEs to some, but it does not make sense to call a duck a chicken.
If it fits the standard, but is just the wrong color, it is still an Ameraucana, don't let anyone tell you different.

I am going to tell you differently, Ameraucanas are different from other breeds. Because people are uneducated, they buy from craigslist or a hatchery, and they get EE. Then they turn around and sell them as Ameraucanas, either because they don't know better, or they are slimey con people who don't give a crap.

Listen to you own comment, "If it fits the standard, but is just the wrong color," Its impossible to fit the standard if it is the wrong color. If you are trying to breed to standard why have crappy birds that don't fit the standard.

I am not talking about project colors. If you have a black, blue, and splash, why the heck do you purposefully want to breed them to say a buff???? It does not make sense to me. The resulting bird is an Ameraucana someone purposely made that will not breed true, and will have color faults(ignore this if you are adding blacks to improve type). Therefore just the fact that it will not breed true makes it unusable for breeding. IMO. There are people out there that just want a pretty egg basket, there for they are buying an Easter Egger.

Another example would be, Blues. I want nice lacing on my birds. If they have edging that is barley discerned from the rest of the feather I don't keep it. I will sell it and label it Easter Egger and pet or barnyard quality. It is not fair to sell these mixed colored birds to someone who is hoping to show some day and breed.

I am sorry to seem b--tchy about it. I am just filled to the gills with people who seem to discount the hard work that goes into improving. So yeah if its not the right "color" its an EE. If its a project color its a project color.

I want to also add that people unintentionally make breedings that won't breed true, or crossing an EE with a pure AM. You could get a bird that fits the standard perfectly, but for all intensive purposes, it is still an EE.

I am working on lacing improvement in blues. I am out crossing to other breeds. I am making EE, until years from now, hopefully they will breed true. Then hopefully I will have nicely laced birds that will breed true, and will be Ameraucanas.

This reply is quite a rant, it is not intended to hurt feelings. I am sorry if it does. I am just very passionate about my chickens. I work very hard, and put in a lot of time.

I want people to improve the breed, not set it back, by breeding sub-par chickens!

 

[Arctic Chick]

I am going to tell you differently, Ameraucanas are different from other breeds. Because people are uneducated, they buy from craigslist or a hatchery, and they get EE. Then they turn around and sell them as Ameraucanas, either because they don't know better, or they are slimey con people who don't give a crap.

Listen to you own comment, "If it fits the standard, but is just the wrong color," Its impossible to fit the standard if it is the wrong color. If you are trying to breed to standard why have crappy birds that don't fit the standard.

I am not talking about project colors. If you have a black, blue, and splash, why the heck do you purposefully want to breed them to say a buff???? It does not make sense to me. The resulting bird is an Ameraucana someone purposely made that will not breed true, and will have color faults(ignore this if you are adding blacks to improve type). Therefore just the fact that it will not breed true makes it unusable for breeding. IMO. There are people out there that just want a pretty egg basket, there for they are buying an Easter Egger.

Another example would be, Blues. I want nice lacing on my birds. If they have edging that is barley discerned from the rest of the feather I don't keep it. I will sell it and label it Easter Egger and pet or barnyard quality. It is not fair to sell these mixed colored birds to someone who is hoping to show some day and breed.

I am sorry to seem b--tchy about it. I am just filled to the gills with people who seem to discount the hard work that goes into improving. So yeah if its not the right "color" its an EE. If its a project color its a project color.

I want to also add that people unintentionally make breedings that won't breed true, or crossing an EE with a pure AM. You could get a bird that fits the standard perfectly, but for all intensive purposes, it is still an EE.

I am working on lacing improvement in blues. I am out crossing to other breeds. I am making EE, until years from now, hopefully they will breed true. Then hopefully I will have nicely laced birds that will breed true, and will be Ameraucanas.

This reply is quite a rant, it is not intended to hurt feelings. I am sorry if it does. I am just very passionate about my chickens. I work very hard, and put in a lot of time.

I want people to improve the breed, not set it back, by breeding sub-par chickens!

No offense taken and I understand your concern! I know what it is like to improve a breed of animal and it is a difficult task, mainly understanding the genetics of any species is the hardest part for most. You all have very beautiful birds, I have seen the pics! I know the hard work, $ and time put in to have such creatures of beauty and perfection.

You have to out cross here to improve, as in many breeding programs with various different animals for show. There is no perfect breed out there and they are always being improved on to meet certain standards, dogs for instance, after 100s of years, still being improved.

I am wise enough to purchase my birds from a private breeder, due to experience, I would recommend others who want to show the birds or to better the breed to do the same. Any animal you want to show for that matter. But business smarts tell me that yes, it is an Ameraucana, would you like to improve your flock with one of my fine birds? ... and continue to do so.

(Splash, Lavender, Buff sell nicely) I will not discourage others nor prevent others from trying to create something that may qualify as standard in the near future. You sell what looks and lays like an Ameraucana and call it an EE, well that opens up a new can of confusion for most, then wonder why you have a bunch of "uneducated" people running around?

Don't think everyone new here does not know what they are doing. I do intend to improve and show only Ameraucanas, I am in the budding process of creating my own line. Yet a duck is a duck, even if it is an ugly duck.

 

[Christie Rhae]

I have been reading this thread for several years....you would not believe how many times I have heard this exact same reasoning.

I guess we should defer to the Ameraucana Breeders club and see what they say about this subject. They are the ones that developed the breed, got it accepted into the SOP and continue to work and improve these birds. If we all just decide for ourselves then it is just anarchy...anarchy I tell you!! lol joke.

Ameraucanas are different. The breed is too young. We must be vigilant.

Any birds I breed that do not conform to the standard are EE in my book. Doesn't seem fair but thats the way it is. I suppose if one wants to change this, they could join the Ameraucana breeders club..run for office and campaign for changes or something.

I also am raising marans. Did you know that a marans...no matter how perfect it is, if it does not lay at least a #4 egg color then it is NOT a marans? It does not matter it's pedigree or how well it fits the SOP. Thank god ameraucana's don't have to lay an exact color intensity or there are a LOT more birds out there that would not make the cut. (Of course there is a preferred color for eggs)

So there are different rules for different breeds and varieties.

 

[Arctic Chick]

I have been reading this thread for several years....you would not believe how many times I have heard this exact same reasoning.

I guess we should defer to the Ameraucana Breeders club and see what they say about this subject. They are the ones that developed the breed, got it accepted into the SOP and continue to work and improve these birds. If we all just decide for ourselves then it is just anarchy...anarchy I tell you!! lol joke.

Ameraucanas are different. The breed is too young. We must be vigilant.

Any birds I breed that do not conform to the standard are EE in my book. Doesn't seem fair but thats the way it is. I suppose if one wants to change this, they could join the Ameraucana breeders club..run for office and campaign for changes or something.

I also am raising marans. Did you know that a marans...no matter how perfect it is, if it does not lay at least a #4 egg color then it is NOT a marans? It does not matter it's pedigree or how well it fits the SOP. Thank god ameraucana's don't have to lay an exact color intensity or there are a LOT more birds out there that would not make the cut. (Of course there is a preferred color for eggs)

So there are different rules for different breeds and varieties.

I get your point Christie. I have to be a member of the club, have a club member tell me what I have or purchase birds from a club member to be true Ameraucana. (I have purchased birds from club members) I may join in the future, who knows, may run for office there one day.

As long as I create a bird to current standard, using what ever I can throw at the genetic scales to achieve standard, have them breed more true to standard, I will in fact have fantastic purebred Ameraucana. Even if I threw a turkey in the mix. That is the beauty of a recently created breed and the standards WILL change, just give it time.
Take for instance, Splash colored Ameraucana. Just ticking to be a new standard in Ameraucana.

So who will have these birds? Oh the people who told everyone else they were EEs. So in the next 5 to 10 years, possibly sooner, you all (who ever "we" are in your post) will have a lot of explaining to do with the confusion that splash EEs are now Ameraucana, that the lavender ones are still EEs, ect.

Why not come up with calling them PCA? (Project Color Ameraucana) Instead of EEs, throwing them into an already jumbled mess of genetics and confusion, when you know genetically not to be true. They would be culled in Ameraucana flocks if they were in fact real EEs and you wouldn't have real EEs breeding in your pens at this very moment.

EEs are crosses. Is a splash bird a cross? This is political, not genetical (genetical being my own term for this instance). The way this is going is evident to me as of to why this is such the case.

So with the change from calling it an EE to PCA or whatever "we" decide to call it, I have solved more than one problem for many, many people and have more people interested in more of my PCA birds for future standards, creating a larger scale of people wanting to breed and show Ameraucana, now that they understand what the hay it is, join the club and better the breed. Who doesn't like more! See how easy that was?

Wow did not know that about the Maran! Glad to not be dealing in egg tint standards atm. I did own a few in the past, I really liked them, great birds to have!

Pleasure meeting you in here! Your post was the most informative! Thank you kindly!

 

[Christie Rhae]

My point was not that you have to be a member of a club, but my point is this....

we can discuss it all we want on this thread but there is a group of people that have organized and established this breed of birds, they worked very hard to get it accepted into the American Poultry Association and to get these birds to be defined as a breed. Talk to those people. Maybe something does need to be clarified or tweaked, you seem very persuasive... put forth your ideas on the ameraucana breeders forum. Ya never know.

 

[halo]

My feelings on this:

If an Ameraucana doesnt breed true in color, then its not an Ameraucana. Which is why if they are mixed colors, they are not Ameraucanas. They will not breed true. They are EEs.

For those wanting to call their birds Ameraucana, even if they have green legs or off type colors. Its not just about DQs for showing, its about conforming to the SOP. Its pretty specific what the bird should be and shouldnt be.

So if you insist that your bird is an Ameraucana, even tho they are a result of a wheaten and a silver crossing, or have willow legs, then just go right ahead with that, because its your birds in your yard, you can do whatever you want.

But if you are wanting to do what is best for the present and future of the breed, to continue on with birds that conform to the SOP, then you will call them EEs and breed then as such.

I have Ameraucanas, and I have EEs. I love them both, and hopefully will always have them. I had a group of wheaten Ameraucanas a few years back that started popping with these strange white wheatens. I got rid of that breeding stock, but I kept some of the white wheatens and use them as EEs. I will never use them back in my Ameraucanas.

 

[Basel]

Take for instance, Splash colored Ameraucana. Just ticking to be a new standard in Ameraucana.

So who will have these birds? Oh the people who told everyone else they were EEs. So in the next 5 to 10 years, possibly sooner, you all (who ever "we" are in your post) will have a lot of explaining to do with the confusion that splash EEs are now Ameraucana, that the lavender ones are still EEs, ect.

Why not come up with calling them PCA? (Project Color Ameraucana) Instead of EEs, throwing them into an already jumbled mess of genetics and confusion, when you know genetically not to be true. They would be culled in Ameraucana flocks if they were in fact real EEs and you wouldn't have real EEs breeding in your pens at this very moment.

EEs are crosses. Is a splash bird a cross? This is political, not genetical (genetical being my own term for this instance). The way this is going is evident to me as of to why this is such the case.

Yes, yes, and YES.

WHY call a non-standard colored pure Ameraucana from two Ameraucana parents an EE??! There already IS a strong definition of what an EE is [that the public somehow needs to learn better]. It is a cross of 2 breeds, one being an Ameraucana or Araucana, and the other any other bird. An EE should lay a colored egg actually too, I believe, so if it lays a brown egg it shouldn't even have this designation [EE]. Imperfect AM's are not now a MIX of two breeds just because they are not show-worthy.

An imperfect Ameraucana [poor beards/muffs, color, etc etc] is a non-breeder, pet quality animal. Or the fancy could call is a temporary new designation like posted above. PCA or something.

The point above about how are any of the breeders going to all of a sudden say that their splash "EE's" are now pure Ameraucanas is spot-on. This is only asking for more trouble for this breed.

If I bred my pure bred Labrador retriever to another pure bred labs, and they had puppies with white toes, the puppies would not somehow become another BREED. They would be poor labs with disqualifying faults.

 

[Basel]

My point was not that you have to be a member of a club, but my point is this....

we can discuss it all we want on this thread but there is a group of people that have organized and established this breed of birds, they worked very hard to get it accepted into the American Poultry Association and to get these birds to be defined as a breed. Talk to those people. Maybe something does need to be clarified or tweaked, you seem very persuasive... put forth your ideas on the ameraucana breeders forum. Ya never know.

Good point. Yes, the experts who have helped develop this breed should lead this.

 

[Basel]

My feelings on this:

If an Ameraucana doesnt breed true in color, then its not an Ameraucana. Which is why if they are mixed colors, they are not Ameraucanas. They will not breed true. They are EEs.

For those wanting to call their birds Ameraucana, even if they have green legs or off type colors. Its not just about DQs for showing, its about conforming to the SOP. Its pretty specific what the bird should be and shouldnt be.

So if you insist that your bird is an Ameraucana, even tho they are a result of a wheaten and a silver crossing, or have willow legs, then just go right ahead with that, because its your birds in your yard, you can do whatever you want.

But if you are wanting to do what is best for the present and future of the breed, to continue on with birds that conform to the SOP, then you will call them EEs and breed then as such.

I have Ameraucanas, and I have EEs. I love them both, and hopefully will always have them. I had a group of wheaten Ameraucanas a few years back that started popping with these strange white wheatens. I got rid of that breeding stock, but I kept some of the white wheatens and use them as EEs. I will never use them back in my Ameraucanas.

Great points too.

Perhaps the APA or the ABC should start a registry just as is done with dogs in the AKC, or horses, or any other animal. I have an AKC registered labrador. His parentage is confirmed and his registry as a pure bred lab is documented. Many people breed "labs" that are really some mix or so watered down that they do not conform to the standard and would never win in a show. Though they might sell them as lab puppies and often do! They never could be registered in the AKC however. And could never be sold as AKC Labrador puppies.

Perhaps the ABC should have serious breeders document their birds parentage for X number of generations and be given the classification of ABC Ameraucanas. Pure Bred. Done and clear.