An attack waiting to happen. Stupid dog!

[21hens-incharge]

I admit I did not read everything.
I will say that I have 2 bird dogs. They stare and point at the chickens from their kennel. Trust them? Only as far as I can throw them. Which aint far.
What worked for us so the hens could be out in the yard at the same time as the dogs is to make the kennel. Dogs in their part and hens in ours.
They watch them and point at them. They also keep the hens out of the strawberry bed. ( Side effect of kennel placement by the strawberries. ) They could clear the fence to get them but do not because they have been trained not to cross fences.
If I could be out there every minute the hens were out I would not worry because the dogs would listen but life happens to call me away sometimes.
The dog kennel is not small at 20 x 75 aprox.

Perhaps a kennel area in the yard would help you as well.

 

[chooks4life]

Is that not the very definition of a wild animal (versus a domesticated one).

On the other hand, you may be describing a cat in dog's clothing.

lol no; those traits are all domestic, in my experience anyway, but others with feral dogs I've met have very similar experiences, though many haven't had such smooth sailing on the livestock/pet front as I have. I wouldn't even call these dogs cats in dogs' clothing, though it's a workable analogy taken the way I expect you meant it... It's just that my cats have always outperformed those dogs in terms of obedience and trustworthiness, with of course only about 0.1% of the training put in.

Wild dogs 'work' for themselves (for 'treats/reward' --- food); they work to please (dominant pack members/parents, mates); they 'work' for enjoyment... In domesticity all these traits are focused on the human and adapt almost entirely to the human environment. If they have the mental capacity and inclination to overcome their super-strong instincts, they make unbelievably good dogs. And very honest ones too.

All the negative traits my younger dog exhibited, he got from his mother, a completely domesticated collie-terrier mix. His father was a dingo/feral mix, bred and born wild. The mother and the son were completely akin mentally, both are disloyal but give every appearance of being good to your face. Fundamentally untrustworthy. Both were better pups than they were adults, initially showed apparent promise before turning resolutely against being loyal or trustworthy animals. Both raised in pretty exemplary fashion, compared to the feral, I made many mistakes with him I've never made with any dog before or since; it took a scramble to find what worked with him but he was always a decent natured dog, unlike his son.

This wild born feral is the only one who's trustworthy. He works to please and for no other reason. Won't work for treats, won't work for praise, won't work for anything but to do what he has been taught is right; needs no prompting, it's like some law written in his brain, never to be questioned. I can trust him behind my back with livestock he's never been alone with. His instincts aren't impaired at all, they're far superior to those of that domestic b!tch and their offspring together, but he's honest and loyal and willing and that's the difference, and what a vast difference it is. He's cunning, very intelligent, but doesn't use it against me, unlike the b!tch and her son, who devote their intelligences entirely to undermining humans and doing what they know is wrong while attempting to not get caught doing it. They're just wretched.

Best wishes... Think I'm going to stop cussing about that b!tch and her traits already. In a very roundabout way I wanted to say some dogs aren't worth the effort and the sooner you realize it and rehome them the better, but nobody learns that lesson except the hard way. Alternatives include permanently physically separating them from the chooks. Electrifying the mesh would prevent them jumping up on it, I guess... Some dogs would blame the chickens for that though and become even more hostile to them, and of course it's a potential risk for the chooks, people, dog, etc...

 

[duluthralphie]

This was said and quoted:

You may not believe it, but we really did have this dog trained once. He was good! Always energetic and needed to be reminded of what he was supposed to be doing, but used to listen.


That statement and the OP's statement about the dog getting part way onto the sofa tell me there is no follow through by "everyone" in the household. Allowing a dog part way onto a sofa it was previously not allowed on is reinforcing in the dog, he has won! He is boss, what you say does not matter.


That is a mixed message, Dogs do not do mix messages.

I respectfully disagree with the premise some dogs are untrainable. Dogs are pack animals. If it thinks it is equal or ahead of you on the pecking order, you will lose.

If there is an untrainable/teachable dog I have yet to see it. I am not a great dog trainer, I know many who are. I have seen them work wonders with dogs others give up on. I have a small problem ne of my dogs When it retrieves a pheasant or duck it drops it at my feet instead of handing it to me. I also know this is my fault, and I am not willing to put the time and work into changing this. This is not the dogs fault, she is just doing what she can get by with. Sometimes dogs appear to exhibit passive aggressive behavior, and we do not stop.

 

[duluthralphie]

. In a very roundabout way I wanted to say some dogs aren't worth the effort and the sooner you realize it and rehome them the better, but nobody learns that lesson except the hard way. Alternatives include permanently physically separating them from the chooks. Electrifying the mesh would prevent them jumping up on it, I guess... Some dogs would blame the chickens for that though and become even more hostile to them, and of course it's a potential risk for the chooks, people, dog, etc...

More truer words have never been spoken, it may not be worth the time, effort and money needed to train a stubborn dog with bad habits. Your other ideas come into play then. The dog in question could be happy and no bother at a home with no livestock.

 

[chooks4life]

More truer words have never been spoken, it may not be worth the time, effort and money needed to train a stubborn dog with bad habits. Your other ideas come into play then. The dog in question could be happy and no bother at a home with no livestock.

I rehomed him a while back after he made it abundantly clear that he was just getting more dangerous behind my back, regarding animals he'd been raised with. Just too great an amount of resistance to conforming to the rules, so unworkable unless I wanted to dedicate my entire life to him alone.
Quote: Hmm, maybe I missed something, not sure where anyone said that. If that was inferred from what I said, it wasn't intended, as I very much agree... Well, the only untrainable dog is a completely deranged or comatose one, lol. My dog wasn't untrainable at all, he performed just fine in almost all things and we were working on some other minor things, you know, just the normal course of training progressing, but behind my back, like his mother, it was always 'his rules', which were extreme violations of what he knew was strictly unacceptable, got worse as he got older... Not worth it.

Best wishes.

 

[duluthralphie]

I probably misread or misunderstood ....

Not worth it I completely understand.. Even my "well-trained" dogs I watch like a hawk, after all they are hunting dogs..... They lay at our feet during chicken TV time and the chickens crawl all around them, but to allow them unsupervised alone time would be foolish.

I being old and retired spend most my time in my sheds or outside so I can watch them or at least hear the chickens if the dogs do something dumb.

My brother has the sister to mine and he lets his out with the chickens all the time, but his has never hunted and grew up with chickens around it.

 

[birdman55]

i just want to put in my two sense.....so these are two pit bulls.....and everyones got there view on them...i spend alot of time training.....and the dogs know when i mean business...all i have to do is say there name and they know if they are doing right or wrong based on how i say there name...you need to be in charge and when they do something you dont like you have to let them no you mean business...name of the dog and a stern NO not no hunny and then pet the dog...these dogs are very well trained...and i will post pictures on what the dogs can do on command and you will see...even when the dogs have a bad day themselves they will test you and you need to be on them like white on rice..not beating the dog or anything but...when they do bad they get a stern voice and when they do good give them a treat and praise them...you are the person they look up to and you are the alpha dog...not them...if your dog is doing something and getting away with it it will only get worse...my dogs sit on command, stay and i walk away, and even back up when there sitting when i say back...it takes alot more time with certain dogs then others...my female the white one when i introduced the birds....killed some dont get me wrong you will loose some in the training process...but i can tell her to go get me a chicken and she will bring me one...both dogs know not to touch the chickens unless otherwise directed...and they listen...extremely well....they do play with the chickens and the chickens are comfortable with them...but when a command is given in a dog...especially with this breed they are very loyal and will do whatever it takes to please there alpha person..being a human not themselves....i have worked with pits my whole life...my mom ran a daycare and she had my trained pit in the home with the babies and other children and it was hard for the parents to pick there kids up...he would be right on the door saying nope your not coming in...however when mom opened the door just like a lite it told him she was ok with the person and they were welcome in the house...you have to spend alot of time to perfect a dogs reactions in certain events and distraction play a big role...but you test your dogs to see there reactions and then you improve onhow they handle themselves in that situation...a dog is easily distracted you have to put emphasis on that you need him/her to not be distracted and keep putting more distractions in front of them...and when they stay focus you praise them...and if not get your stern voice out and let them no.....here are some pictures the male is 90 almost a hundred pounds and has extreme pressure lockjaw and can hang by his jaw on a toy that seven feet in the air...he can jump almost eight feet straight up...the female is only fifty pounds and has no lockjaw....but is very fast and can catch anything...rabbits...you name it...anyways here are some pictures...and later ill post some other ones of the training...hope this helps...give it time and be persistent .....remember you have a hunting dog...its there natural instinct to hunt...its what they have been breed for...my dogs...the pits have been trained in other aspects....
this pic above is them interested in saying high to the birds...you need to be able to read you dog before they react and let them no wheather there going to do something not good or ok...the male brendal was just saying hi as apposed the female..this is how she stands before she runs up to the chickens and scares them...so i saidno to her and for her to come by me and sit and then the last pic when the female was by me sitting i called the males name and he looked...simple but time consuming things that you have to do.....


the birds behind them are about four feet...but when i say sit and look....they sit and look


when i called his nake....joker...bc he had a split personality and face ...he looked....again about four to five feet away from the birds....
the next time they sunbathe on the back porch i will take a pic and post it as well....so i will post again soon....

 

[birdman55]

ok went outside and keep this in mind we have about forty free range chickens....and there all over the back yard...so i figured i would congregate them to one location the dogs no not to go into the area...main area where the chickens are located....so when i told them come they ran right in..here are some picks...also keep this in mind...we have a doggie door that is fully at there needs to come and go...and they are left alone all day every day with the chickens that are also free range and they leave each other right alone..
here is joker right by the entry way to the back chicken area...now its only four feet fence and the chickens just jump over it so we just leave the door open....and the dogs stay out of there...



when i called them to come into the area after just feeding some of the chickens in the back...sorry if some of the females look beat up the roosters have not been to nice this year to them...but the main focus here is that they were more focused on just being in the area that there not allowed to be in unless there are racoons that there was no focus on the chickens...this is how you know your dogs are trained...not trained dog would have went at the chickens with no hesitation...

this is how high i put the toy in the tree


a simple sit and stay command..and when i say get it they start jumping and joker the male got it...

 

[birdman55]

here is the toy and the tree


here is the winner...and you notice his tail..its up and thats aggressive in this breed....letting the famle he won and he has the toy and not to try and mess with him...also notice another pen behind....i would recommend a pen like this on the dogs level to start the training process...when the dog jumps up on the fence you say no...this allows the dog to interact with the birds and no they are gunna stay there...also as you go outside with your dog and if they go straight there and hassle the birds you know you need to spend more time...with time they will learn you are ok with the birds...and then you can go with the approach of having to train the dogs with the chickens out of the cage...these birds are house here for quarantine and when they get bigger will be introduce to the older flock and some of the birds that got beat up by the rooster will be dinner before winter...however it goes both ways...when we came inside the white female was outside with the toy and ran passed the rooster black and white rooster and the rooster jumped up and kicked her in the butt...she looked back and realized....oh a chicken...who cares ...thats a no touch otherwise dad would be mad and kept on running....hope this helps

 

[chooks4life]

@birdman55

Interesting you say they're pitbulls; they look just like dogs of a variety of names I see around Australia pretty often; probably because they're banned in many places I guess. I know many American Staffordshire dogs here are actually pitties. There are some Roman Noses but they're not too common. Overall good dogs, but as with my dog, family line counts for a lot. You don't tend to get great dogs from terrible family lines, which really depends on the breeders and owners of the ancestors to some extent. Doesn't mean you never get good dogs from bad families or owners of course. I've known great dogs belonging to terrible owners and terrible dogs belonging to great owners, I really don't believe it's all the owner's doing in every single case.

I've known good and bad dogs of many breeds, even siblings in the same litter, there's no 'born angel' breed in my opinion, some are just more likely to be overall decent than others, depends on what the breeders are doing and then on what the owners do, but also on the dog's own choices and mentality.

One of the most interesting color types I've ever seen was a 'tiger' colored dog shaped like yours, but the ginger/red/gold was so bright and the black brindle stripes so distinct, and the white portions so spot-on, it was blatantly obvious someone had been breeding these dogs to look like tigers --- if you saw a glimpse of them from even a short distance you'd think it was a tiger. Big dogs, perfect tiger coloring, both males (father and son), so well behaved they roamed the streets around their owners' shop meeting and greeting people. Bit off topic, but never seen that coloring before or since; wonder if they were pits. Best wishes.

Not worth it I completely understand.. Even my "well-trained" dogs I watch like a hawk, after all they are hunting dogs..... They lay at our feet during chicken TV time and the chickens crawl all around them, but to allow them unsupervised alone time would be foolish.

I'm the same, I watch my dogs even if I trust them. I trust my roosters etc as well; doesn't mean I stop watching them, especially around new people. Minds change, circumstances can be subtly different even if without close inspection it seems the same, and I've seen illness, toxicity or whatever wreak some pretty deep character changes in animals and humans which often only emerges in unexpected/unprovoked aggression or unjustified hysteria or fear (all symptoms of derangement caused by brain damage in these cases). Especially with invisible illness which is the main reason I don't trust that a previously trustworthy animal will always be so.

I knew I had a problem after a while when this dog demonstrated that he was going to be flawless to my face, never do anything needing correction, but behind my back another sort of dog; how can you address behavior that only emerges in your absence? I tried the limited options I had and ultimately it wasn't enough. He wasn't allowed free range with the other animals behind my back for the last part of my ownership of him as I spotted warning signs long before he could act on them, and so tried to prevent him; however as a pup he'd always been free range with them, with no issues. He just changed, like his mother, after a year old. I was sure he'd turn out ok with time and training but he was a waste of both.

Shame, but done and dusted now. Yes, 'accidents' happen, one does expect some losses are likely while training them; the dog I rehomed never had an 'accident' as a pup though, never even showed inclination or interest in attacking or chasing these animals, whereas his father and mother both had 'accidents' on poultry, as pups, but never again. As an adult their son went after one animal out of the whole lot that he'd determined he must kill, despite being raised with that species and despite me putting in many hours training him with that animal, and he got into the yard and succeeded, but didn't kill any others, despite having access to do so. He just made up his mind and that was that. Not like he'd ever shown interest in killing them before, not that I didn't put in the time and training, not that he didn't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not okay.

Best wishes.