Well said, ON!
Anyone non-religious here? Please be nice!
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Your part in here about Jesus and his deciples I totally agree with however HE(Jesus) never said go to church every Sunday and Wednesday or whenever. He never said Jews, or catholic, or methodist or any "religion" had it correct. HE said "FOLLOW ME" If a person has no faith then they will never hear or see.
I'm sorry.. but i have to disagree with you..
The REAL reason that i/we dont hear from god is because there is NO god...
I HATE to be the bearer of such bad news to you .... but if you think theres heaven after death.. then honestly.. i'd make other "back-up" plans...
Its common sense really. The bible is just a story.. a fable.. a fiction written by a normal man... its known as the greatest fiction ever written.
But if YOU believe in god... then, hey.. thats great! To each their own beliefs, i say!
Just dont try to push your beliefs onto me.... because your beating a dead horse and thats not very "christian".
I wish you the very best with your god..
See>>> beating a dead horse... just saying...
Your part in here about Jesus and his deciples I totally agree with however HE(Jesus) never said go to church every Sunday and Wednesday or whenever. He never said Jews, or catholic, or methodist or any "religion" had it correct. HE said "FOLLOW ME" If a person has no faith then they will never hear or see.
I'm sorry.. but i have to disagree with you..
The REAL reason that i/we dont hear from god is because there is NO god...
I HATE to be the bearer of such bad news to you .... but if you think theres heaven after death.. then honestly.. i'd make other "back-up" plans...
Its common sense really. The bible is just a story.. a fable.. a fiction written by a normal man... its known as the greatest fiction ever written.
But if YOU believe in god... then, hey.. thats great! To each their own beliefs, i say!
Just dont try to push your beliefs onto me.... because your beating a dead horse and thats not very "christian".
I wish you the very best with your god..
See>>> beating a dead horse... just saying...
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I like your smilie, redhen.
I don't begrudge anyone their believes. If it gives another person peace, who am I to judge? I just wish that the same courtesy would be extended to those who don't want to be evangelized.
Just curious, have any of you heard of this. I've had religious friends who practice, what I call, stealth evangelism. They don't tell their nonreligious target that they are trying to convert them. Instead they practice what they call, friendship evangelism. They befriend the person and then wait until they feel the time is right to win them over. I have heard of people loosing friendships when the religious person discovered that the nonreligious person was not going to budge on accepting their faith. That is sad, but it is also underhanded and manipulative.
One of the first inklings, for me, that my former faith was wrong was the fact that I kept running into people who were dishonest in their attempts to convert others. It left a bad taste in my mouth and started the process of me asking questions.
If a religious person doesn't want an atheist to come to their home and purposely befriend them with the secret intent to destroy their faith then why would a religious person think that was all right to do to a nonreligious person?
I don't begrudge anyone their believes. If it gives another person peace, who am I to judge? I just wish that the same courtesy would be extended to those who don't want to be evangelized.
Just curious, have any of you heard of this. I've had religious friends who practice, what I call, stealth evangelism. They don't tell their nonreligious target that they are trying to convert them. Instead they practice what they call, friendship evangelism. They befriend the person and then wait until they feel the time is right to win them over. I have heard of people loosing friendships when the religious person discovered that the nonreligious person was not going to budge on accepting their faith. That is sad, but it is also underhanded and manipulative.
One of the first inklings, for me, that my former faith was wrong was the fact that I kept running into people who were dishonest in their attempts to convert others. It left a bad taste in my mouth and started the process of me asking questions.
If a religious person doesn't want an atheist to come to their home and purposely befriend them with the secret intent to destroy their faith then why would a religious person think that was all right to do to a nonreligious person?
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OOh, so true!
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I've been away from this thread for a while but have read each post with interest. When last I posted I wandered off the beaten track a little so I'm reminding myself of what it's about by quoting the OP above.
I wouldn't define myself as either spiritual or religious, at least not in public. That's not because I'm neither of those things but because each person has his own definition of the words and allotting myself a label or pigeon hole might give someone else the wrong idea of what I believe at the moment. A religious person might regard himself as also spiritual. A spiritual person has beliefs so he may be regarded as religious. Is it that spiritual people don't belong to a church of their own? Many do. So, the lines aren't clear for me.
I don't know where to start when it comes to imagining what a creator must be like. The very idea of one raises more questions every time that I think I have found part of the answer.
When I was young I was sent to Sunday School. Church of England doctrine and petty criticism at home of certain other faiths was all that I knew about religion. At around 12 years of age I was expected by my mother to be confirmed into the C of E and go to communion every Sunday morning, even though she rarely went to church herself. I joined the school Christian Fellowship. I became a bigot about other Christian faiths, dismissed other creeds as irrelevant and feared for the souls of non-believers. I came close to evangelising. I was intolerant of any criticism of my version of Christianity.
Then the questions appeared in my mind. Were they a test of my faith or were they there for me to answer from my own reasoning and intuition and for my benefit? The first rock that dropped on my head came from a teacher. I had berated him, probably in the most boring fashion, for some critical comment he made about religion. Finally, in exasperation, he said that he could not believe in a god that allowed children to suffer. I didn't react at the time but the seed was planted and later I began to question my assumptions and conditioning. After all, what value does a belief have if we haven't worked it out for ourselves? Accepting something without question is laziness, a sin I believe. I also reasoned that if a faith, including my own, could not stand up to straightforward questions and criticism it had to be a weak faith. I began to notice more and more anomalies in my church's doctrine and the behaviour of churchgoers. I started to ask myself what god looked like and how he could have created the world, let alone, the universe. I stopped accepting the inadequate answers and benign smiles of others and began to think things through for myself.
The start of this process was frightening. Suddenly, I was alone in the universe. There was no prop of belief or ready made like-minded community to lean on any more. I had to face the possibility that there was no heaven, hell or after life. The process continues even now and probably won't ever stop, at least while I draw breath. My personal explanation of the universe changes as I learn more and reflect more and I still am a very long way from feeling that I have all of the answers. I haven't a clue how all that gas and solid matter could give rise to the first spark of life. There's a big difference between elements in the form of rock and elements in the form of a living creature.
And that's the point, I think. We don't know. No-one can know. We can only learn, believe, learn more and believe again. That being so, my present belief is that we should make the best for ourselves here and now. I don't necessarily mean either materially or selfishly. The older I get the more aware I become of my failings and the more able I am to attempt to do something about them. That's especially true now that I am retired and don't have to perform an act for employers or customers! I shall never be perfect but I try. I think that my personal code is as good as anyone else's even though I don't always manage to live up to it. If I let myself down I have to take full responsibility for the consequences because no-one but I can absolve me.
That's enough for now.
I've been away from this thread for a while but have read each post with interest. When last I posted I wandered off the beaten track a little so I'm reminding myself of what it's about by quoting the OP above.
I wouldn't define myself as either spiritual or religious, at least not in public. That's not because I'm neither of those things but because each person has his own definition of the words and allotting myself a label or pigeon hole might give someone else the wrong idea of what I believe at the moment. A religious person might regard himself as also spiritual. A spiritual person has beliefs so he may be regarded as religious. Is it that spiritual people don't belong to a church of their own? Many do. So, the lines aren't clear for me.
I don't know where to start when it comes to imagining what a creator must be like. The very idea of one raises more questions every time that I think I have found part of the answer.
When I was young I was sent to Sunday School. Church of England doctrine and petty criticism at home of certain other faiths was all that I knew about religion. At around 12 years of age I was expected by my mother to be confirmed into the C of E and go to communion every Sunday morning, even though she rarely went to church herself. I joined the school Christian Fellowship. I became a bigot about other Christian faiths, dismissed other creeds as irrelevant and feared for the souls of non-believers. I came close to evangelising. I was intolerant of any criticism of my version of Christianity.
Then the questions appeared in my mind. Were they a test of my faith or were they there for me to answer from my own reasoning and intuition and for my benefit? The first rock that dropped on my head came from a teacher. I had berated him, probably in the most boring fashion, for some critical comment he made about religion. Finally, in exasperation, he said that he could not believe in a god that allowed children to suffer. I didn't react at the time but the seed was planted and later I began to question my assumptions and conditioning. After all, what value does a belief have if we haven't worked it out for ourselves? Accepting something without question is laziness, a sin I believe. I also reasoned that if a faith, including my own, could not stand up to straightforward questions and criticism it had to be a weak faith. I began to notice more and more anomalies in my church's doctrine and the behaviour of churchgoers. I started to ask myself what god looked like and how he could have created the world, let alone, the universe. I stopped accepting the inadequate answers and benign smiles of others and began to think things through for myself.
The start of this process was frightening. Suddenly, I was alone in the universe. There was no prop of belief or ready made like-minded community to lean on any more. I had to face the possibility that there was no heaven, hell or after life. The process continues even now and probably won't ever stop, at least while I draw breath. My personal explanation of the universe changes as I learn more and reflect more and I still am a very long way from feeling that I have all of the answers. I haven't a clue how all that gas and solid matter could give rise to the first spark of life. There's a big difference between elements in the form of rock and elements in the form of a living creature.
And that's the point, I think. We don't know. No-one can know. We can only learn, believe, learn more and believe again. That being so, my present belief is that we should make the best for ourselves here and now. I don't necessarily mean either materially or selfishly. The older I get the more aware I become of my failings and the more able I am to attempt to do something about them. That's especially true now that I am retired and don't have to perform an act for employers or customers! I shall never be perfect but I try. I think that my personal code is as good as anyone else's even though I don't always manage to live up to it. If I let myself down I have to take full responsibility for the consequences because no-one but I can absolve me.
That's enough for now.
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A friend who had converted invited me and another friend to a party to, and I quote, "Have bbq and hang out, nothing big." Here's what wound up happening.
We arrived at the "party," which was being held in a church. No big deal, the Catholic churches I grew up around had fun little parties all the time, so I wasn't worried yet. We wandered in, ate some snacks, watched as a few more people arrived, and . . . the attack began. The idea was these church folk would bring in a "lost" friend or two, which wound up being about six of us, and they would spend the night telling us how much Jesus loved us and how we could be saved, and reading bible passages to us. It was the creepiest night of my life, and I felt dirty when I left it. Having grown up with Catholics, the whole idea of evangelizing and having the bible be such a huge part of your life is completely foreign to me, and as much as I wished I'd grown up in a more secular household, I thanked my lucky stars that day that I had been raised Catholic.
Just starting on this topic is bringing back memories of that night . . . when the creepy church people found out that I had been raised Catholic, they jumped on that (funny how that seemed to disturb them more than my atheism. I guess they were afraid that if I was "saved", I might head on over to the wrong team. What is it about Catholics? My grandfather's family completely disowned him for marrying my grandmother because she was a Catholic). They asked me, in a very smooth manner where it was difficult to realize how insulting they were actually being, about my family's habit of worshiping idols and loving Mary more than Jesus, which really set me off. If there is something about Catholicism that I can be said to really defend, it is the respect for Mary. Honestly, think about it . . . Christianity is a blatantly misogynistic religion, to the point where a council actually had to come together back in the day and vote on whether or not women were actually humans. Luckily, the vote was in our favor, but barely. How is it hard to understand the reverence paid to one of the very few women who could be looked up to in a religion like that? Most of the other women were either leading the men astray or turning into pillars of salt, and doing dirty, deceitful womanly things like menstruating. Yeesh. Mary was a good woman. For centuries Christian women have been able to relate to her on a level that they only pretended to when it came to Jesus or god. Mary struggled in a man's world, stood up to gossip about her premarital pregnancy, cared for her children and husband and watched her first born die a brutal death. She is the very symbol of endurance, which is, even today, all that some Christian women hope to get out of life. For them Mary is the proof against this religion's cries that they can never be as good or strong because of their gender, because Mary certainly was both good and strong. I can not stand that the creepy church people would have that aspect of their religion made light of. And here's something that would get their blood boiling if I had had the wits to tell them this. It's something that has always bothered me about her story: Their god should have asked Mary's consent. I do not, ever, excuse or forgive rape, even if a god happens to be the one doing the raping. It's the one reason why I had trouble being as enthusiastic about the Greek gods as my peers were. The origins of the minotaur had me wanting to hunt down and challenge Zeus myself.
I don't think Jesus existed, though, not even as merely a man. I think it is most probable that he is a composite character made up of several of the hundreds of prophets that roamed around in those days, preaching the exact same things and performing the exact same magic tricks. Rising from the dead was a very popular trick in those days. But if I'm wrong and he was real, I have to say, that makes me respect Mary all the more. She actually managed to have the presence of mind, in a day and age that punished women brutally for anything even approaching a sexual nature, to concoct the only story that would explain away her premarital pregnancy and leave her untarnished in the eyes of man. I doubt I would have been able to do that. Kudos to her. She deserves to be one of the Nordic Gods in an epic story of her own, as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, that was my first and only real personal run in with fundies, and how absolutely damaging the need to evangelize can be. I lost a really good friend that night, and I miss him, terribly. Back when he was agnostic we'd go camping and rock climbing, and he'd worship the metaphorical god by living, by giving his all every day and ending each day dirty and sweaty and stuffed full of good deeds, new experiences and new information. Now his world has dwindled down to 6,000 years and an obsessive need for everyone to love Jesus as much as he does, because he's racked with guilt and pain over the thought of them spending eternity in hell. I mourn for him.
I suppose I ought to have prefaced this with something about being sorry if anything I type offends anyone, but I'm not going to. If I was actually sorry, I wouldn't type it in the first place, just like I don't go marching into a church every Sunday to read the pages of this thread to the congregation. I'd be very sorry for that, so I don't do it. It's a good rule of thumb.
I guess I just sort of figure that, in a thread catering to nonreligious people, it's nonsensical to apologize every time I relate a story or voice an opinion that ties into the conversation to a group of like minded individuals. And yeah, this is kinda a mini rant brought forth by reading several posts that begin with an apology, because it's very telling about how overwhelming prejudice is against the nonreligious, that they are made to feel convinced that they do need to apologize for having different thoughts and ideas that don't harm anyone.
A friend who had converted invited me and another friend to a party to, and I quote, "Have bbq and hang out, nothing big." Here's what wound up happening.
We arrived at the "party," which was being held in a church. No big deal, the Catholic churches I grew up around had fun little parties all the time, so I wasn't worried yet. We wandered in, ate some snacks, watched as a few more people arrived, and . . . the attack began. The idea was these church folk would bring in a "lost" friend or two, which wound up being about six of us, and they would spend the night telling us how much Jesus loved us and how we could be saved, and reading bible passages to us. It was the creepiest night of my life, and I felt dirty when I left it. Having grown up with Catholics, the whole idea of evangelizing and having the bible be such a huge part of your life is completely foreign to me, and as much as I wished I'd grown up in a more secular household, I thanked my lucky stars that day that I had been raised Catholic.
Just starting on this topic is bringing back memories of that night . . . when the creepy church people found out that I had been raised Catholic, they jumped on that (funny how that seemed to disturb them more than my atheism. I guess they were afraid that if I was "saved", I might head on over to the wrong team. What is it about Catholics? My grandfather's family completely disowned him for marrying my grandmother because she was a Catholic). They asked me, in a very smooth manner where it was difficult to realize how insulting they were actually being, about my family's habit of worshiping idols and loving Mary more than Jesus, which really set me off. If there is something about Catholicism that I can be said to really defend, it is the respect for Mary. Honestly, think about it . . . Christianity is a blatantly misogynistic religion, to the point where a council actually had to come together back in the day and vote on whether or not women were actually humans. Luckily, the vote was in our favor, but barely. How is it hard to understand the reverence paid to one of the very few women who could be looked up to in a religion like that? Most of the other women were either leading the men astray or turning into pillars of salt, and doing dirty, deceitful womanly things like menstruating. Yeesh. Mary was a good woman. For centuries Christian women have been able to relate to her on a level that they only pretended to when it came to Jesus or god. Mary struggled in a man's world, stood up to gossip about her premarital pregnancy, cared for her children and husband and watched her first born die a brutal death. She is the very symbol of endurance, which is, even today, all that some Christian women hope to get out of life. For them Mary is the proof against this religion's cries that they can never be as good or strong because of their gender, because Mary certainly was both good and strong. I can not stand that the creepy church people would have that aspect of their religion made light of. And here's something that would get their blood boiling if I had had the wits to tell them this. It's something that has always bothered me about her story: Their god should have asked Mary's consent. I do not, ever, excuse or forgive rape, even if a god happens to be the one doing the raping. It's the one reason why I had trouble being as enthusiastic about the Greek gods as my peers were. The origins of the minotaur had me wanting to hunt down and challenge Zeus myself.
I don't think Jesus existed, though, not even as merely a man. I think it is most probable that he is a composite character made up of several of the hundreds of prophets that roamed around in those days, preaching the exact same things and performing the exact same magic tricks. Rising from the dead was a very popular trick in those days. But if I'm wrong and he was real, I have to say, that makes me respect Mary all the more. She actually managed to have the presence of mind, in a day and age that punished women brutally for anything even approaching a sexual nature, to concoct the only story that would explain away her premarital pregnancy and leave her untarnished in the eyes of man. I doubt I would have been able to do that. Kudos to her. She deserves to be one of the Nordic Gods in an epic story of her own, as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, that was my first and only real personal run in with fundies, and how absolutely damaging the need to evangelize can be. I lost a really good friend that night, and I miss him, terribly. Back when he was agnostic we'd go camping and rock climbing, and he'd worship the metaphorical god by living, by giving his all every day and ending each day dirty and sweaty and stuffed full of good deeds, new experiences and new information. Now his world has dwindled down to 6,000 years and an obsessive need for everyone to love Jesus as much as he does, because he's racked with guilt and pain over the thought of them spending eternity in hell. I mourn for him.
I suppose I ought to have prefaced this with something about being sorry if anything I type offends anyone, but I'm not going to. If I was actually sorry, I wouldn't type it in the first place, just like I don't go marching into a church every Sunday to read the pages of this thread to the congregation. I'd be very sorry for that, so I don't do it. It's a good rule of thumb.
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Thaiturkey, I did enjoy reading your dissertation. Interesting perspective. I hope you do not mind but I am going to use your statement to make a point..
Yes a rock is different than a rabbit, but I am not sure what is meant by "big difference".
Personally, I am NOT so sure we as a species are in the position to make that statement, if a "big difference" somehow insinuates superiority, better, or more advanced. Do we really understand the mechanics of it all? ...... This is a bit abstract, but I feel making that claim is down the same path of thinking that evangelism stems from. (Feeling like things like "us" are some better, right or more advanced. So in the case of religion, evangelism or missionaries the goal is to help and make others think and act as you do. "save them" make them like "us")
It is my opinion that our learned or genetic tendency as a species to classify and separate objects and creatures based on how much they are like us is a major flaw in our species. Think about how we think... Multi cell creatures like us are more "advanced than amoebas". Mammals some how more advanced than egg layers. Even we create hierarchy based on behaviors of creatures. Ones that have traits like us some how gain favor and are considered superior, smarter, better. In my opinion this is the line of thinking that drives religion and also the root of genocides, racism, prejudice, shovanistic behavior and on and on.
I will stop there with my abstract analogy...
Deb, Yes I too have been stealth evangelized....It stings when you don't see it coming.
fowltemptress, thanks that was a good read, yes the prejudice is so so apparent.
Be well..
ON
Thaiturkey, I did enjoy reading your dissertation. Interesting perspective. I hope you do not mind but I am going to use your statement to make a point..
Yes a rock is different than a rabbit, but I am not sure what is meant by "big difference".
Personally, I am NOT so sure we as a species are in the position to make that statement, if a "big difference" somehow insinuates superiority, better, or more advanced. Do we really understand the mechanics of it all? ...... This is a bit abstract, but I feel making that claim is down the same path of thinking that evangelism stems from. (Feeling like things like "us" are some better, right or more advanced. So in the case of religion, evangelism or missionaries the goal is to help and make others think and act as you do. "save them" make them like "us")
It is my opinion that our learned or genetic tendency as a species to classify and separate objects and creatures based on how much they are like us is a major flaw in our species. Think about how we think... Multi cell creatures like us are more "advanced than amoebas". Mammals some how more advanced than egg layers. Even we create hierarchy based on behaviors of creatures. Ones that have traits like us some how gain favor and are considered superior, smarter, better. In my opinion this is the line of thinking that drives religion and also the root of genocides, racism, prejudice, shovanistic behavior and on and on.
I will stop there with my abstract analogy...
Deb, Yes I too have been stealth evangelized....It stings when you don't see it coming.
fowltemptress, thanks that was a good read, yes the prejudice is so so apparent.
Be well..
ON
fowltemptress, What you wrote really hit a chord with me. I have a habit of apologizing on these threads and I never really thought about why. Of course, religious people might get offended if they wander into a thread of people who are nonreligious. If a person can't handle having their faith questioned then why even look over this thread? You made some good points.
Also, one of the reasons that I converted to Catholicism from fundamentalism was because I was very drawn to Mary. Now I think that the reason that I was drawn to her was because I desperately needed a female side of the divine. Most of my reading had been on quiverful and extremists sites so I was getting a very male dominated view of religion. It drained me and I needed something that affirmed that I, as a woman, was important.
In the end, Catholicism couldn't stop me from questioning religion itself. No one can say that I didn't try to hold onto my faith. I just couldn't turn off my brain.
On a different note,
Here is a link to a news report about one girl that left the Westboro Church. I am so glad and I hope that she is safe.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/estranged-westboro-kid-felt-god-hated-10829904
For those who don't know what Westboro is, here is another link that pretty much sums the group up. They are the ones who picket homosexuals and gays funerals.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/year-hell-10825410?tab=9482931§ion=4765066
Also, one of the reasons that I converted to Catholicism from fundamentalism was because I was very drawn to Mary. Now I think that the reason that I was drawn to her was because I desperately needed a female side of the divine. Most of my reading had been on quiverful and extremists sites so I was getting a very male dominated view of religion. It drained me and I needed something that affirmed that I, as a woman, was important.
In the end, Catholicism couldn't stop me from questioning religion itself. No one can say that I didn't try to hold onto my faith. I just couldn't turn off my brain.
On a different note,
Here is a link to a news report about one girl that left the Westboro Church. I am so glad and I hope that she is safe.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/estranged-westboro-kid-felt-god-hated-10829904
For those who don't know what Westboro is, here is another link that pretty much sums the group up. They are the ones who picket homosexuals and gays funerals.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/year-hell-10825410?tab=9482931§ion=4765066
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Yes I have been subjected to that kind of sleath as well. It just irks me big time!
Yesterday, my sis and I had some polite differences but we knew we had to stop before we had a blow up on our views of religion and my view of being anogstic and how we both view things in general.
She wanted to have my dd for her Bible camp which that is perfectly fine for me, so my dd can have her own fun, learn some moral values, and earn her GS badge on top of it. My dd goes to a private Christian school and they do a Bible study once or twice a week. She says her prayers before suppertime which I am perfectly fine with it and respect her wishes to pray to God for her thanks for food and all of the nice things. That was important to her. Sure I am proud of her accomplishments in school and getting the moral values, patience and understanding of people around her that she was unable to get from school and home. No violence from schools, or bullying or waiting for the other students to catch up while she sits there bored to tears when she has a real hunger to learn something new.
Anyway, sis and I was discussing some of the Bible and I told her it is just a story and I do not believe in everything in there but the moral views and our behavior and thinking would effect us as a whole. I can sense the anger in my sis when she said where is your faith? Why can you believe in God? He is the one who created my DD and God was the one that decided to let you have a baby. Sorry I do not believe in it even I do sense a higher being but I honestly think God was not the one who gave me my dd, it is pure biology that occurs in mankind for so many years. I threw the question back at her about Genesis....where was Lucy? Where was she in the Bible??? She said she does not exist and the science folks are very wrong....well, we do have prove of Lucy, in her bones and her location. Where did it say about the dinosaurs? She didnt have an answer to that one either.
Then she invited me to visit her Baptist Church...no thanks, again, one of sleath things again! Been there once before with her and will not do it again. I didn't like to be singled out by the crowd that I needed to be "saved" when all of them say their prayers, hands on my shoulders and head, praying that I will convert to their religion. I was very unsettled and uneasy about it and it didn't "fit" me at any level. I even told sis that I was uneasy about the whole thing at the church and she told me that I have to give my whole heart or open all my heart to the Lord and Jesus. Sorry, it just does not work for me. Besides I do not need the Church to "save" me or explained to me why their religion is better than others.
Regardless of what my dd wants to do, if she wants to go to Bible school, by all means, it will enrichen her learning and social skills including tolerance. My beliefs will not stand in the way of it nor it would be enforced on her. I would let her do what she wants and what is important to her. It was hard for her to understand why my husband and I do not believe in the Bible 100%....hubby is aethist but he believes in evolution, we descend from apes, period. As for me, I am a bit of both, evolution AND religion (moral and structure wise) but I do not believe in the existance or can prove there is a God but a sense of higher being and still trying to figure out the line in the sand of what I do believe and not believe. Later down the line, if my dd wants to break away or sees nothing further for her to continue with Bible services, then she can make her own decision where she wants to go.
I know there are going to be many more discussions in the future with my sis pertaining to my dd's GS class. Sometimes I do not know how to answer when sis ask "Why dont you go to church with us?" "Why dont you believe in it?" If I tell her that I am agnostic, I am sure there are going to be a line in the sand with my own family as well as others. Should I stay in the closet? Or say nothing.
Yesterday, my sis and I had some polite differences but we knew we had to stop before we had a blow up on our views of religion and my view of being anogstic and how we both view things in general.
She wanted to have my dd for her Bible camp which that is perfectly fine for me, so my dd can have her own fun, learn some moral values, and earn her GS badge on top of it. My dd goes to a private Christian school and they do a Bible study once or twice a week. She says her prayers before suppertime which I am perfectly fine with it and respect her wishes to pray to God for her thanks for food and all of the nice things. That was important to her. Sure I am proud of her accomplishments in school and getting the moral values, patience and understanding of people around her that she was unable to get from school and home. No violence from schools, or bullying or waiting for the other students to catch up while she sits there bored to tears when she has a real hunger to learn something new.
Anyway, sis and I was discussing some of the Bible and I told her it is just a story and I do not believe in everything in there but the moral views and our behavior and thinking would effect us as a whole. I can sense the anger in my sis when she said where is your faith? Why can you believe in God? He is the one who created my DD and God was the one that decided to let you have a baby. Sorry I do not believe in it even I do sense a higher being but I honestly think God was not the one who gave me my dd, it is pure biology that occurs in mankind for so many years. I threw the question back at her about Genesis....where was Lucy? Where was she in the Bible??? She said she does not exist and the science folks are very wrong....well, we do have prove of Lucy, in her bones and her location. Where did it say about the dinosaurs? She didnt have an answer to that one either.
Then she invited me to visit her Baptist Church...no thanks, again, one of sleath things again! Been there once before with her and will not do it again. I didn't like to be singled out by the crowd that I needed to be "saved" when all of them say their prayers, hands on my shoulders and head, praying that I will convert to their religion. I was very unsettled and uneasy about it and it didn't "fit" me at any level. I even told sis that I was uneasy about the whole thing at the church and she told me that I have to give my whole heart or open all my heart to the Lord and Jesus. Sorry, it just does not work for me. Besides I do not need the Church to "save" me or explained to me why their religion is better than others.
Regardless of what my dd wants to do, if she wants to go to Bible school, by all means, it will enrichen her learning and social skills including tolerance. My beliefs will not stand in the way of it nor it would be enforced on her. I would let her do what she wants and what is important to her. It was hard for her to understand why my husband and I do not believe in the Bible 100%....hubby is aethist but he believes in evolution, we descend from apes, period. As for me, I am a bit of both, evolution AND religion (moral and structure wise) but I do not believe in the existance or can prove there is a God but a sense of higher being and still trying to figure out the line in the sand of what I do believe and not believe. Later down the line, if my dd wants to break away or sees nothing further for her to continue with Bible services, then she can make her own decision where she wants to go.
I know there are going to be many more discussions in the future with my sis pertaining to my dd's GS class. Sometimes I do not know how to answer when sis ask "Why dont you go to church with us?" "Why dont you believe in it?" If I tell her that I am agnostic, I am sure there are going to be a line in the sand with my own family as well as others. Should I stay in the closet? Or say nothing.
Quote:
Never hear or see what? (Is this kind of like Santa Claus????)
Even in the most convoluted interpertations of what a man called Jesus may or may not have said, I do not recall anyone documenting him saying "follow me I am the only path." I do believe the man called Jesus traveled to the east and spent time with people of eastern religions . Some how those scrolls are lost and those years not documented.
It is my personal opinion we do not have a clear picture of what this special gifted individual may have had to share with us.
If you are here on the non religious thread to proclaim Jesus is the only path to "salvation" Please do it some where else.. Please do not insinuate people of no religion or belief or people of any religion other than Christianity will "never see or hear". We see and hear plenty!
VioletBlueIvy,
Interesting viewpoint! I enjoyed it..
ON
Matt 4:19 "Follow Me"
John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the father, but by me.
Furthermore, I do not consider myself religious, I consider myself spiritual, And i never said you had to be a Christian to hear Christ. Nor do I believe that. Also This thread started saying they considered themself spiritual but doesnt believe in organized religion. It is not my intention to offend anyone, I can accept all. Can YOU?
Never hear or see what? (Is this kind of like Santa Claus????)
Even in the most convoluted interpertations of what a man called Jesus may or may not have said, I do not recall anyone documenting him saying "follow me I am the only path." I do believe the man called Jesus traveled to the east and spent time with people of eastern religions . Some how those scrolls are lost and those years not documented.
It is my personal opinion we do not have a clear picture of what this special gifted individual may have had to share with us.
If you are here on the non religious thread to proclaim Jesus is the only path to "salvation" Please do it some where else.. Please do not insinuate people of no religion or belief or people of any religion other than Christianity will "never see or hear". We see and hear plenty!
VioletBlueIvy,
Interesting viewpoint! I enjoyed it..
ON
Matt 4:19 "Follow Me"
John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the father, but by me.
Furthermore, I do not consider myself religious, I consider myself spiritual, And i never said you had to be a Christian to hear Christ. Nor do I believe that. Also This thread started saying they considered themself spiritual but doesnt believe in organized religion. It is not my intention to offend anyone, I can accept all. Can YOU?
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