apple cider vinegar

[Uppity Peon]

I don't think we can rely on ACV to wipe out a bad worm infestation. It is more of a way to help maintain a healthy digestive tract.

 

[outinthegarden]

I would like to give my chickens Apple Cider Vinegar in their water but I currently have galvanized steel waterers.

Is their any other ideas besides plastic? I'm not fond of plastic either...it also leaches it's chemicals into the water (and in some types, hormones) and they don't disinfect near as well as metal...nor do they do well in climates with cold winters (they crack and cannot be placed on heaters).

Does anyone have a year around solution for a waterer that you can put ACV in and can be used year around?

Note: I do not have a way to heat a piped system that would prevent freezing in the winter months...I've relied on a water heater base...so I do not believe this is an option either.

 

[patandchickens]

My impression is that *hard* plastic, e.g. what chicken waterers are made of, does not generally leach anything meaningful into water. And I've never had any problems with disinfecting plastic, not sure what you are referring to.

A piped system doesn't avoid plastic-or-metals-soluble-in-acid either, even if you *could* use it

If for some reason you have your heart set on a waterer that is neither plastic nor galvanized, though, probably the thing to do is carefully coat a brand-new (or well-sanded-to-remove-rust) galvanized waterer inside and outside, both parts of it, with epoxy paint. Epoxy paint has nasty fumes, wear a respirator with a fumes cartridge, but once dried is inert and nontoxic. As long as it remains unchipped, it renders a galvanized container safe for use with acids. Keep an eye out for chips and cracks, of course.

Plastic would be a whole lot simpler though.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
You can calculate it, you know. Google for the calculation methods. Vinegar is acetic acid, generally 5% by volume. Or just *do* it, and measure. Note that adding a tsp of lemon juice per quart of insufficiently-acidic tomatoes makes them acidic enough for safe waterbath canning, so clearly that sort of ratio DOES have a discernable effect on pH.

I do not know what good the calculation would do without knowing at what pH the heavy metal ions in galvanized coatings become solubilized, though.

People (generally harder to poison than chickens) have been seriously poisoned simply by drinking lemonade stored overnight in galvanized containers. Similar problems have arisen with fairly-acid natural sources of water in galvanized troughs. So it is not like you need concentrated sulfuric acid for problems to arise.

Pat

It was more of a rhetorical question than a math problem. It was intended to illustrate my belief that this, and many similar "cures", lack credulity.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
My observation, as a former research scientist, is that what matters is not so much whether you think something OUGHT to work on theoretical grounds... it is whether it actually DOES work. Remember the classic proof that bumblebees can't fly?

I am not aware of any good tests of whether unpasteurized ACV works for this or that.

But I see no point in dismissing an idea out of hand just because it happens to be old-school or because you don't personally happen to have theory that it fits nicely into

I agree it would be good to see some properly collected experimental data though.

JMHO,

Pat, basically agnostic on this particular one

 

[NYREDS]

But I see no point in dismissing an idea out of hand just because it happens to be old-school or because you don't personally happen to have theory that it fits nicely into I agree it would be good to see some properly collected experimental data though.

Conversely I am disinclined to accept something simply because I read it on an Internet site.
I agree that some data would be nice but some things defy logic-bumble bees not withstanding.
BTW-smilies don't really hide intended messages.​

 

[outinthegarden]

Pat,

Thank you for your reply. My biggest issue with plastic is the freezing issue in winter: it's tendency to become brittle and crack as well as not being able to be set on a heater pan to prevent your water source from freezing. If there is a single watering system that would work YEAR AROUND and hold up well over several years (and does not affect the water when ACV or any other supplement is added), please let me know. I will also look into the epoxy idea although the chipping aspect concerns me.

Plastic, because it is a porous material, does absorb a certain amount of it's liquid contents which does mean it will retain some of the bacteria or disinfectant it comes in contact with (that was my reasoning, but yes, some plastics are less porous than others, I personally try to avoid it). That is also why it is harder to get the smells and stains out of plastic as opposed to say, stainless steel. You would never see a doctor disinfecting and reusing a plastic item used in surgery.

As far as I know you can't heat plastic waterers either; they'd potentially melt to the pan if the pan got too hot.

BUT, my issue was mainly the winter months and trying to find the right watering system that would not react to AVC or another supplement AND could be heated to prevent the water from freezing. Otherwise I do not know how to supply ACV to my birds during the cold season... e few may have the luxury of a thermostat regulated heated coop but we do not.

If there is something on the market that I am not aware of, I would love to hear about it! It might be simple and I might have just missed it.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Conversely I am disinclined to accept something simply because I read it on an Internet site.

Me neither. I am openminded about the possibility that ACV may have some positive effects because there are very experienced people (e.t.a. - in REAL LIFE, I mean, not random internet usernames, obviously

), whose experiences and *results* I respect, who are under the impression it has been helpful to them. Thus I think it is smarter not to dismiss it out of hand. Your mileage may vary of course.

BTW-smilies don't really hide intended messages.

Wow, it must be great to be able to read minds.


Pat​

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Hm, I haven't found that to be a problem. Where do you live, how cold does it get? I much *prefer* plastic in wintertime, because if a galvanized waterer freezes much at all, it tends to irreparably bust, whereas the plastic waterers I find to have much more of a sense of humor (as long as you don't let them freeze totally solid while brim-full).

as well as not being able to be set on a heater pan to prevent your water source from freezing.

Well, some systems can be rigged for plastic if you are comfortable with DIY or modifications; or there is always the one with the heater element built into the base. The one I have (with the heater element built into the base) requires a bit of a learning curve in terms of getting it put back together after refilling but it is not THAT difficult and sure beats frozen water

Plastic, because it is a porous material, does absorb a certain amount of it's liquid contents which does mean it will retain some of the bacteria or disinfectant it comes in contact with (that was my reasoning, but yes, some plastics are less porous than others, I personally try to avoid it). That is also why it is harder to get the smells and stains out of plastic as opposed to say, stainless steel. You would never see a doctor disinfecting and reusing a plastic item used in surgery.

Yeah, but does that MATTER, for chickens???? Plastic buckets and troughs are fairly universally used for many kinds of livestock with no problems at all. Just scrub it out occasionally, use salt or bleach if it makes you happy or if the animals had a disease.

Honestly, watering livestock is a bit different than an operating table....

Otherwise I do not know how to supply ACV to my birds during the cold season.

Well, it is not like they NEED apple cider vinegar. As NYREDS says, its merits are certainly debatable, it is not like your chickens are going to suffer or die if they go without for the winter

Good luck, have fun,

Pat​

 

[outinthegarden]

Pat,

Once again, thank you for your responses. Like I said, the main issue was not the sterile issue; I was responding to your comment. Not sure why all the emphasis; maybe I wasn't clear.

Just a tidbit on plastic though since we did head that direction: The chemical called bisphenol A (BPA) used to make plastics (including food grade), mimics the estrogen hormone and DOES leach into your liquids. Extra estrogen will make you fat, slow and tired. It can even wipe out your sex life. If it stays in your blood long term it can trigger cancer or other diseases. You can read more about it at http://www.alsearsmd.com/tag/bisphenol-a/ . The test results were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association as well. Just because the general population does it, doesn't mean it's safe.

These studies are of course referring to humans. But, I will have to disagree on your theory that they are 'just chickens.' They also have a hormonal structure that can be altered and I do take that into consideration for their over-all well-being.

No, of course chickens do not need ACV to survive...nor do we, but it is a valuable nutritional supplement for the digestive tract as well as it prevents the growth of bacteria in your birds standing water; two qualities I would like to use it for year around. I've heard some say it has increased their egg production but rather than having a direct effect, it is likely due to another existing problem that the in-take of raw ACV helped to clear up such as a digestive problem that affected the hen's overall health and slowed her production.

I have had quite a bit of experience raising chickens including running birds on pasture in tractors...with which I used the Plasson bell waterers (Hard plastic). I personally do not care for them. I have tried a number of waterers and have noticed that algae builds up faster during the summer months in the plastic waterers than in the metal waterers. BUT, this post was not at all intended to be a discussion of plastic vs. metal...I think we got a bit off track. I am aware that some systems do accommodate plastic but as I said I am not fond of it. It's a personal choice; it wasn't intended to be the heart of the conversation. But again, thank you for your input. I was just hoping someone might have some insight into a year around watering system that did not react to ACV or other supplements OTHER THAN PLASTIC.

***One more note: I didn't see this stated but for those considering using apple cider vinegar, look for RAW, UNFILTERED vinegar (you will see sediment in the bottom.)
Pasteurized vinegar does not have the quality of raw organic apple cider vinegar. Through its processing and distilling, it’s been stripped of everything beneficial .***

Have a great day!