Apple slices

[CanadaEh]

The most important thing a bird can get from us is a balanced feed, and the chances of a backyard owner having the knowledge, inclination, resources, time and testing to make a complete feed are near zero. Best they can usually do is copy the works of another in hopes of ending up with what is, on average, a decent, balanced feed - but for every person choosing to copy J Rhodes, there seems to be several copying "Garden Betty", whose website is slick with feel good words.

for some reason you are talking about formulating feed (mixing dozens of ingredients in correct proportions like feed companies do) and giving your birds no other choice but eating that feed.

The original discussions was about giving the birds free choice access to fruits/veggies instead of considering them harmful and "in moderation as treats only"

 

[cherrynberry]

yes, it also much easier to feed from the bag, and for achieving good productivity, but not necessarily the healthiest choice for the hens or for the best quality eggs.

just saying that some people have taken it few steps further (just as feeding their dog/cat pets raw vs just feeding them balanced dry food from the bag).

nobody says about feeding them veggies alone, but if you give them free choice, they are well capable in balancing their own diet. It is a matter of stating that vitamins/minerals in the live veggies are better than those in dry feed (even when there is no big ag scientist to mix them in perfect proportions). Similarly the live protein of worms/insects is better that dehydrated and possibly somewhat rancid one from the bag.

the reasons the chickens can't just live off of grass is
1) they are not equipped with a ruminant digestive tracts to extract all the goodness from the grasses, so they only eat grasses for vitamins/minerals/digestion fiber as find needed.
2) they would have to eat like bucket a day to get that protein or carbs they need.
again nobody said about feed them greens alone

The problem with providing treats EVEN IF they have free-choice feed is that they will prefer treats. They don't know better. Its true that they can regulate their feed intake amount and their calcium intake, BUT they don't know the quality of their feed. Its a huge reason why whole grain is not the most ideal. Chickens will choose what they want to eat, not always what they need. I know this because I used to feed whole grain

 

[CanadaEh]

BUT they don't know the quality of their feed. Its a huge reason why whole grain is not the most ideal.

it is pretty bad if it was the only thing they eaten without access to high protein components to compensate for higher carb intake. Otherwise it is very fresh and being proceed being significant part formulated feed you advocating for.

Chickens will choose what they want to eat, not always what they need.

That was not my experience. Just as with oyster shells they go for whatever food they feel mostly missing in the diet. If they go crazy for veggies/greens - that is because it is a component they mostly missing it in their dry feed!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

for some reason you are talking about formulating feed (mixing dozens of ingredients in correct proportions like feed companies do) and giving your birds no other choice but eating that feed.

The original discussions was about giving the birds free choice access to fruits/veggies instead of considering them harmful and "in moderation as treats only"

I'm talking about formulating feed, because offering treats "free choice" is exactly what you are doing. The equivalent of placing an ice cream bar, a chips and dip tray, and a cooler full of beer in front of a frat boys at the football game, then expecting them to eat a whole-grain starch, some green leafy veg, and a lean protein as a complete meal afterwards.

BYC is littered with people feeding very expensive, "healthy-sounding word"-heavy feeds, then finding their birds have nutrition problems because their hens are picking out favorites in accordance with flock order, and disregarding the rest - to their nutritional detriment. Plenty of poster offering too much scratch, BOSS, meal worms, etc - and they have no reference with which to judge the effects on their birds.

Offering a treat or two, in whatever quantity the birds want does two things.

1) It ensures they will displace part of their complete feed in their diet to eat the desired goody.

2) It ensures the total daily nutrition of the bird will be imbalanced in a way directly related to the nutritional makeup of the treat in question.

Even offering a range of treats is more problematic than not - at best, you are in the same situation as the owner offering those whole grain feeds, their birds playing favorites. At worse, your range of options fails to even offer the balance. Birds can't eat what they aren't given. If your treats are all legumes, you end up with one sort of imbalance. All seeds, you end up with a different sort of imbalance. All grains, yet another sort of imbalance. Read up on "protein complimentation" - there is surprising overlap in the theory of feeding humans and feeding chickens, on that particular subject.

Its part of why I've worked so hard at offering my free-ranging birds a host of options, all times of the year, in their pasture. Grasses, grains, seeds, legumes, forbs. Which I use as a suppliment to a complete feed. and I stick my hands in their guts almost weekly, looking for evidence of dietary problems which might escape external visual inspection.

Since you don't know what you are doing - clearly - the thumb rule is that treats be limited to not more than 10% of the daily diet, by weight, daily. and that treats be rotated periodically. That's to help those who don't care to understand the science from doing damage to their birds in their ignorance. No guarantees of course, the figure is quite conservative - but it fits the majority of situations, and thus has some utility.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I will offer you one olive branch, however. Fresh treats like apples, grapes, cabbage watermelon, etc are mostly water - so the imbalances that result from such treats are, typicially, less severe than the imbalances from dried foods from which most of the water has been removed. Not because drying is bad, but simply because the treat is now, for good or ill, more nutrient dense. Likewise seeds, because nature has already packed those as densely as can be reasonably managed by a biological system.

 

[rosemarythyme]

Without getting into the "health" benefits/detriments, your birds simply may not like apples. Mine won't eat them.

 

[CanadaEh]

this conversation is clearly about 2 ways of managing chickens and could be well sponsored by big ag, and I have a few problems with your way.

1. Use of "Treats" like "candies" in relation to foods such as fruits, veggies, grains, kitchen scraps (including meat/fish), bugs, worms - another words ANYTHING but complete feed. Veggies are mostly water, than fiber and vitamins and do virtually nothing to the protein/carb/fat balance, yet "be limited to not more than 10% of the daily diet".

2. Use of "feeding" like here is feeder and waterer that's it. When chickens free range whether it is a field, forest, or a compost pile (all of them containing so-called treats) they eat whatever they want and in whatever proportions they feel like. Yes, it might be not perfectly balanced due to scarcity of some foods, but they surely trying their best. So the egg laying production may be not the highest but who cares when you get the best quality egg and they live the lives they were designed for by nature. And if you want the highest production you may as well cage them so they would not waste the valuable feed energy they could use for egg laying.

 

[CanadaEh]

I will offer you one olive branch, however.

No need to. The "treat" factor is blown out of proportion. I know there are lots of people on BYC who manage chickens the same as their parents and granparents used to, know it works, and just ignore any "you've got to use the balanced feed" posts

 

[U_Stormcrow]

this conversation is clearly about 2 ways of managing chickens and could be well sponsored by big ag, and I have a few problems with your way.

1. Use of "Treats" like "candies" in relation to foods such as fruits, veggies, grains, kitchen scraps (including meat/fish), bugs, worms - another words ANYTHING but complete feed. Veggies are mostly water, than fiber and vitamins and do virtually nothing to the protein/carb/fat balance, yet "be limited to not more than 10% of the daily diet".

2. Use of "feeding" like here is feeder and waterer that's it. When chickens free range whether it is a field, forest, or a compost pile (all of them containing so-called treats) they eat whatever they want and in whatever proportions they feel like. Yes, it might be not perfectly balanced due to scarcity of some foods, but they surely trying their best. So the egg laying production may be not the highest but who cares when you get the best quality egg and they live the lives they were designed for by nature. And if you want the highest production you may as well cage them so they would not waste the valuable feed energy they could use for egg laying.

I have problems with your elevation of smug moral superiority over the state of the science. Now before you go off on some tirade about "big ag", most of the science is being done by China, India (both countries seem rather concerned with the longevity of their respective Gov'ts should their people starve), the EU (amino acid supplimentation, primarily) and developing 2nd world countries in the (loosely) Mediterannean Basin and Near East, with regard local agricultural products. Teff, btw, is surprisingly good as a feed ingredient for a grain - because its not, exactly a grain. I'd love to plant some here. The US science has mostly fallen behind.

You raise your birds your way, I'll raise my birds mine.

and when others seek advice, you can offer your anecdotes, I'll do the same - and link sources in support of my opinions, when required. The original poster can then draw their own conclusions, and raise their birds as they feel fit.

 

[21hens-incharge]

WOW this thread derailed a bit.

I limit the quantities of treats but that said mine get things from the garden as they are available.
Apples are enjoyed by all my chickens but approximately half don't like bell peppers.
Each chicken has their own preferences.

My advice is to enjoy your birds and limit the treats so they eat the balanced feed.