Apple slices

[CanadaEh]

I have problems with your elevation of smug moral superiority over the state of the science.

if your science say people can't raise chickens without using commercial feed, I have problems with that. If your science say that chickens won't produce better quality eggs with limitless access to greens and bugs such as they do when free ranging because it would unbalance their feed, then you either naive or have an agenda.

Yikes. I don't know what to say to you. Chickens aren't just going to eat scratch because they NEED it. Its because they want it. 20% protein is plenty for chickens, even for chicks. Its enough for a chick to feather out nicely and for adults to finish their annual molts. No veggies needed. Chickens don't know how to fully balance out their own diet. Its the whole reason why you see chickens will issues. If chickens could balance their diet as well as you make it sound, we wouldn't see the issues we see today.

So when I give mine free access to greens, grains, and meats you are saying they eating them in wrong proportions? And greens are not beneficent for them or for egg quality?

To me, I would rather save time and make sure my birds are healthy. Why re-invent the wheel? The wheel was created because it works, and it surely works better than a square.

The wheel was created to make money, increase profitability and the scale of chicken farming, and make people life easier. As does fast food. Battery cages is another wheel as chickens can live in very tight space while producing even more eggs for the feed eaten.

Again, its not like my life surrounds around chickens. I have better things to do. And for what its worth, feeding a balanced diet has helped my birds to live a long and happy life. For those of us who have a large number of birds, treats are considered another cost, making chickens a larger liability.

I have no problem with feeding whole bagged feed, I am having problem with people saying it is the only option and is superior to free ranging and natural foods (other than productivity which I agree)

Chickens don't have a long life expectancy anyways and treats don't necessarily make them "happy" or healthier. Its the same concept for humans. A moment on the lips, forever on the hips.

The dreaded "treats" again, whatever great natural foods they are.

 

[21hens-incharge]

I will offer this....

Most backyard chicken keepers do not have the biodiversity or space to have sustainable biodiversity to successfully free range the flock without having the main feed be a processed balanced feed. That being in summer. Snow covered range is even more problematic.
That means they eat what we give them including "treats". If those treats are all low protein the balance is thrown off with undesired results.
Add to that the fact todays chickens are bred to produce larger eggs in greater quantity than the chickens of old which means their nutritional needs are much different than chickens that were around 100+ years ago living on the farm.

 

[CanadaEh]

Snow covered range is even more problematic.
That means they eat what we give them including "treats". If those treats are all low protein the balance is thrown off with undesired results.

not if you are running a separate freezer for their high protein "treats". The same as you have to do when raw feeding a dog that you don't want to eat dry kibble.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

if your science say people can't raise chickens without using commercial feed, I have problems with that. If your science say that chickens won't produce better quality eggs with limitless access to greens and bugs such as they do when free ranging because it would unbalance their feed, then you either naive or have an agenda.

So when I give mine free access to greens, grains, and meats you are saying they eating them in wrong proportions? And greens are not beneficent for them or for egg quality?

The wheel was created to make money, increase profitability and the scale of chicken farming, and make people life easier. As does fast food. Battery cages is another wheel as chickens can live in very tight space while producing even more eggs for the feed eaten.

I have no problem with feeding whole bagged feed, I am having problem with people saying it is the only option and is superior to free ranging and natural foods (other than productivity which I agree)

The dreaded "treats" again, whatever great natural foods they are.

Actually, the Science says that the chances of chickens thriving, as opposed to merely surviving, without a diet meeting certain nutritional minimums while not exceeding other maximums, is near zero. As is the chance of a backyard owner with little knowledge accidentally stumbling upon the right mix to best benefit their birds. Unsure how you choose to define "better quality" - on an optimum mix of complete feed, birds will lay more frequently, larger eggs, while maintaining better body condition and disease resistance than not on an optimum mix. Free Ranging (which I do, by the way - my flock is in the Sig, my birds have 5 acres +/-) does result in some seasonally variable conditions in the eggs. For instance, in winter (or what passes for Winter in FL, at least), my ducks eat a lot of acorns - mostly from the oaks, but also from the hickory when they can get into them. The eggs, as consequence, have a distinctly green cast. Is it better??? They still taste fine, stand firm, have thick albumin that doesn't spread like water in the pan, and a nice hard shell - but "better"? That's rather subjective.

Yes, in all likelihood, they do eat them in the wrong proportions - and the chances of you offering them in the wrong proportions is also quite high - likely close to 100%. Depends on the green, and the quantity, and how it works with the rest of the diet.

You have yet to offer any reason why "natural" in whatever mix and whatever quantity is somehow superior to a nutritionally balanced ration - likely because you can't. Certainly no reputable, reproducable study in any nation has come to the same conclusion. One could feed the crew of a sailing ship, plying its way across the ocean all the "natural" food they want - and if it lacks for citrus or another concentrated vitamin C source, its a near certainty they will have scurvy. Feed them nothing but citrus, and they will have a whole host of problems.

Trade offs, always trade offs. Nutritional balance is key.

and again, you have mistaken "Natural" for "Healthy". That's magical thinking. The answer, for humans, chickens, and essentially all other living things is "it depends". and since your assertion doesn't consider those other factors, I can't join you in it.

and @Bryce Thomas there is no reason to give your chickens apples. If you want to, occasionally, and in moderation, you certainly can. It is highly unlikely to benefit them. I recommend dicing the apple into small cubes, then throwing it in front of them. The movement will *likely* trigger a rush to ingestigate and explore with their beaks. They may like it. They may not. But it will likely generate more interest than simply holding a piece out, or hanging one from a string for them to peck at.

 

[CanadaEh]

Actually, the Science says that the chances of chickens thriving, as opposed to merely surviving, without a diet meeting certain nutritional minimums while not exceeding other maximums, is near zero. As is the chance of a backyard owner with little knowledge accidentally stumbling upon the right mix to best benefit their birds. Unsure how you choose to define "better quality" - on an optimum mix of complete feed, birds will lay more frequently, larger eggs, while maintaining better body condition and disease resistance than not on an optimum mix. Free Ranging (which I do, by the way - my flock is in the Sig, my birds have 5 acres +/-) does result in some seasonally variable conditions in the eggs. For instance, in winter (or what passes for Winter in FL, at least), my ducks eat a lot of acorns - mostly from the oaks, but also from the hickory when they can get into them. The eggs, as consequence, have a distinctly green cast. Is it better??? They still taste fine, stand firm, have thick albumin that doesn't spread like water in the pan, and a nice hard shell - but "better"? That's rather subjective.

There are many studies that free ranged or pastured eggs are higher in vitamins/minerals and lower in cholesterol. Free range = access to greens/bugs not available from your bagged balance feed + sun + exercise digging them out. Totally unnecessary for productive egg laying and even detrimental for feed conversion

Yes, in all likelihood, they do eat them in the wrong proportions - and the chances of you offering them in the wrong proportions is also quite high - likely close to 100%. Depends on the green, and the quantity, and how it works with the rest of the diet.

Greens and grains are free choice and I give them proteins exactly as much as they would eat only because of spoiling and pests concerns, so technically it is free choice as well. Interestingly just few weeks ago I did some excel math of what they consuming in a month in terms of carbs/proteins/fats and came up 18% protein and fat just a bit high at 5%. This is what they have chosen to eat, not because I have done the math before hand and decided for them.

You have yet to offer any reason why "natural" in whatever mix and whatever quantity is somehow superior to a nutritionally balanced ration - likely because you can't. Certainly no reputable, reproducable study in any nation has come to the same conclusion.

Not a chemist, but there are probably studies how protein/fat food dehydrating may generate free radicals, degrade nutrient value etc, for people that is. And why there is no perfectly balanced dry food for people? I mean there are indeed protein powders and such for athletes, but has not you learn to eat your veggies when you were a child?

One could feed the crew of a sailing ship, plying its way across the ocean all the "natural" food they want - and if it lacks for citrus or another concentrated vitamin C source, its a near certainty they will have scurvy. Feed them nothing but citrus, and they will have a whole host of problems.

there is list on internet of foods and plants poisonous to chickens, and bunch of people promoting the idea that you can through them whole uncooked potato or avocado pill and they all dies how stupid they are. Conversely in regard to eating they are smarter than people. Can you feel that you need more calcium or vitamin C?

Trade offs, always trade offs. Nutritional balance is key.

and again, you have mistaken "Natural" for "Healthy". That's magical thinking. The answer, for humans, chickens, and essentially all other living things is "it depends". and since your assertion doesn't consider those other factors, I can't join you in it.

I am just failing to admit that the minimally processed food that birds would eat in nature is less healthy than dry feed in the bag.

and @Bryce Thomas there is no reason to give your chickens apples. If you want to, occasionally, and in moderation, you certainly can. It is highly unlikely to benefit them. I recommend dicing the apple into small cubes, then throwing it in front of them. The movement will *likely* trigger a rush to ingestigate and explore with their beaks. They may like it. They may not. But it will likely generate more interest than simply holding a piece out, or hanging one from a string for them to peck at.

to each their own. Some people are ok with store bought eggs, some keep chickens using commercial feed and supplement it with natural foods and free ranging, some don't use commercial feed at all and find statements that this is not a way to do it ridiculous.

 

[Cynthia12]

My chickens use to free feed in my back yard. I had apple trees out there, and a pear, and a cherry. They would eat some of them all, but especially liked the cherries. . In the winter, I would go out with veggies and .. mostly spinach, a d fruit at times. Not every day, but a few times a week. They ate their feed really well. We get snow!

 

[raingarden]

Denying the benefit a formulated feed is like being a science denier. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days... and it really gripes me.

Poultry feed is very highly developed and refined product. Every little detail has been evaluated with painstaking controlled studies. The development has been slow, chipping away at the edges to get a tiny percentage incease in performance.. But we (as a civilization) have been working on it for over a century so those tiny percentages have really added up. We probably know nearly as much about poultry nutrition as we do about human nutrition. Then throw in factors like getting the best feed at the lowest price, maximizing profit, and engineering (through selection) birds that perform better on least-cost formulations. I am in awe of the whole thing. It makes you proud to be a human being.

But, it all unravels when human emotion is thrown into the mix. To reap the maximum benefit from formulated feed you cannot loose sight of profit margins and you must think like a cold-hearted factory farmer.

When the flock becomes our companions, or pets, or part of the family we naturally empathize with their plight. We wouldn't want to eat the same formulated ration at every meal so why should the birds. So, we try to spice things up with treats and other culinary enrichment. But, is it good for them? Does it increase their quality of life? Is quality of life more important than length of life? I struggle with these things when feeding the birds AND when feeding myself. So, the birds get whole grains and meal worms (but not at the same time). I get pastries and beer (but not at the same time).

One thing about feeding myself, I have a wife and doctor that tell me how to eat healthy. The doctor measures blood pressure, body mass index, cholestrol, purines and a bunch of other things influenced by my diet. He can predict how my dietary choices are affecting my health and length of life. The birds don't give me that sort of feedback. Most of the time I don't even know if they are fat or skinny under all those feathers.

@U_Stormrow mentioned he can evaluate a birds health when being butchered. First, I'd like more informations about what to look for. Second, it's too bad we can't make those evaluations when the bird is alive. If we knew the rooster has fatty liver it would be a whole lot easier to withhold that handful of corn.

I've about decided that our birds are so spoiled with treats that we should just get rid of them and start all over. If provided only the best grower or layer pellet, they will go on a hunger strike. Invariably, I give in before they do. Damned human emotion.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormrow mentioned he can evaluate a birds health when being butchered. First, I'd like more informations about what to look for. Second, it's too bad we can't make those evaluations when the bird is alive. If we knew the rooster has fatty liver it would be a whole lot easier to withhold that handful of corn.

Nothing to it. Any number of good websites on how to judge a chicken's condition, externally. Why, even Dummies can do it (sorry, couldn't resist - but it is a surprisingly good basic overview). A bit of practice does help, of course.

The one thing I think both those sources (and most others) miss is the importance of looking at a flock's fecals. Chickens, like most prey animals, are very good at hiding injury and signs of weakness. Their flesh being covered in feathers doesn't help, either. I don't specifically recommend any one of these sources - but these will get you started. Obviously, I picked these sites for their photos, and for their general agreement. Then troll the disease and injury forums here on BYC. You will quickly recognize the experts - i am NOT one of them.
Fresh Eggs Daily on Droppings
The Chicken Chick on Chicken $#!+
Agro[culture] for Africa
Know Your Chickens

Finally, and this works for me because of my management, but does not work for most others, because their zoning doesn't allow culling, they can't stomach the idea of killing the family pet just to see if the other family pets are healthy (then eating the remains), etc. Get all up inside it. Not shown here, I also inspect the contents of the gizzard, to see what they are eating from my pasture, and will sometimes empty a portion of the digestive tract - lower portion of the intestine to see how well it is seemingly being digested. I am very concerned with the liver - I want it solid color, firm, and glossy, but not enlarged. The organs and thier cavity should be clean and smooth, no lesions, well attached, with little fat. Fat on the heart and gizzard is like guagine a belt or a tie - once you've seen it a few times, its pretty obvious when its too wide, or too narrow, then you can alter feed accordingly.

Least reliable, of course, is watching behaviors - and the larger your flock, the less likely you will get to know individuals well enough that subtel changes will stand out before the condition is serious enough that the chicken can't easily hide it. But if you sense something is wrong, even if you can't consciously identify what it is, do some extra checks.

 

[3KillerBs]

So the egg laying production may be not the highest but who cares

Anyone who keeps livestock rather than pets cares.

While, realistically, keeping any chickens costs a lot more than buying the 60-egg boxes for $7.99 US from Walmart, production is the difference between chickens as an affordable hobby that *might* even break even with the sale of hatching or eating eggs and chickens as expensive pets.

they live the lives they were designed for by nature

The lives they were designed for by nature are short, brutal lives in the jungles of southeast Asia. Just moving them out of that environment is largely taking nature out of the equation.

Additionally, unless you're raising Jungle Fowl or, at least, small, light, gamefowl of the type that have managed to establish feral populations in some highly-forgiving environments such as the Hawaii, Louisiana, and parts of Florida, they're not the birds nature designed either.

They are livestock, bred to suit human purposes for nearly as long as humans have kept domestic animals.

Most backyard chicken keepers do not have the biodiversity or space to have sustainable biodiversity to successfully free range the flock without having the main feed be a processed balanced feed. That being in summer. Snow covered range is even more problematic.

Right.

I think that the key to knowing if you can see a major decline in feed consumption through the use of range is whether or not the area is capable of supporting a popultion of feral chickens.

Pasture is a valuable supplement but can't substitute for primary feed anywhere that feral chickens can't survive.

manage chickens the same as their parents and granparents used to

We neither live our grandparents' lives -- great-grandparents for a lot of us -- on a diversified farm where chickens were able to scavenge spilled feed from other livestock, pick undigested feed and bugs out of other livestock's manure, and forage in a diversely-planted acreage -- nor raise our grandparents' chickens.

Add to that the fact todays chickens are bred to produce larger eggs in greater quantity than the chickens of old which means their nutritional needs are much different than chickens that were around 100+ years ago living on the farm.

What struck me most about reading old books on poultry keeping was the incredibly-low levels of production expected. Poultry for the Farm and Home, International Havester 1921 (pdf available here), was advising farmers on how to achieve a profitable 100 eggs per hen per year from LEGHORNS.

The Brahma in my avatar, the worst layer in my flock who *ought* to have been culled except for the sentimental fact that she's my granddaughter's favorite, did better than that.

if you are running a separate freezer for their high protein "treats".

That is an inconceivable luxury for anyone but the truly well-to-do -- especially if your flock consists of more than a handful of pets.

It's not wrong if you can afford it -- it's your wealth and you have ever right to use it as you choose -- but I have enough trouble feeding my family sufficient fruits and vegetables thoughout even my green and mild winters to waste freezer space on food for livestock. They get weeds pulled from the areas were I'm developing garden space on fresh land and trimmings from the preparation of our meals.

I am planning on growing extra storage squash this summer with the intent of having enough to give the flock a squash per week for vitamin A to keep the yolks an attractive yellow -- given that I'm trying to develop egg sales.

If provided only the best grower or layer pellet, they will go on a hunger strike. Invariably, I give in before they do.

No healthy animal will starve itself in the presence of food. Fill the feeder. Walk away. They'll eat what they're given when they are hungry enough.

but it is a surprisingly good basic overview

I certainly hope so because Rob Ludlow is our site founder here.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I have the book. Anytime you see the "for Dummies" brand, you have to expect that the quality will be highly variable. That one gets my recommend, for what little its worth.