Are nice roos as scarce as hens teeth?

[fiveladybugs]

We lucked out with our White Leghorn roo. He is not aggresive at all, thank goodness. I'm looking to add two more for breeding (different breeds) and am a little apprehensive, as we have been spoiled by our super laid back guy.

 

[wolfpak]

Have had as many as 20 roos running around together, & NONE were the least bit human aggresive. Have an older Buff Orp that is especially nice, an EE, RIR roos have been particularly sweet & GREAT flock protectors.

Agreed, we would NEVER keep a 'man-fighter' roo, especially not one to breed. Temperment is heritable, and that's not a trait we're interested in promoting. Most of the roos we've ever had are were docile, nice tempered, gentle birds.

That said, years ago we had 2 of the most evil aggressive roos imaginable down in the barn. They LOVED to sneak attack from behind, hitting us in the upper back. It felt like getting hit hard with a stick! As we were leaving on vacation for a few days, we allowed them to stay & protect their barn.... they were both there when we returned, but a day or so later we found them both dead. Evidently they'd gotten into a fight with each other, & neither emerged the winner!

One was a huge Black Australorp, purchased at the local 4-H Fair auction. He'd been hand raised, and was mean as a snake. Beautiful, HORRID creature! Can't recal the other breed... but there is NO WAY I'd ever keep a nasty one around.
We hatch our own eggs, oftentimes, & the excess roos (most) are raised to maturity, then processed. With 11 mostly lg. dogs, that we homecook for, the roos come in very handy, crockpotted with brown rice & veggies for the fur-babies, & us, too!

 

[NYREDS]

And there you have it. Bill doesn't interact with his chickens as most backyarders do. He's a breeder, period. He breeds for looks and Standard of Perfection, which cares zilch about temperament. He never walks among his birds as we do so it's not a concern with him.

I challenge him on one point, for sure! You won't find a more prolific breeder than a Delaware rooster and my Isaac handles 25 hens at the age of 3 years old just fine, though he has some he just plain doesn't like (as witnessed by chasing those couple away from the feeder). In fact, some of his favorites are even wearing protectors. He is a complete pussycat with us and even with other people who have visited here. In fact, it should be a breed trait for a Delaware to be well-tempered and friendly. If you have a human-aggressive Delaware, you have a cull bird.

The idea that a good breeder must be human-aggressive is pure myth, in my humble opinion, sorry, but I hear that over and over again, and it just ain't so. You can feel free to disagree with me, but I'll never believe it.

I agree with one thing--you shouldn't let an 8 lb chicken bully you. If you can't change that behavior, that bird needs to be culled.

ETA: If that's what you want, aggressive males, that's fine, but backyard hobbyists usually don't want human-aggressive roosters. Even most breeders would rather not have a nasty-tempered male and propagate that temperament, because, don't kid yourself, it is heritable. The OP who asked is not a professional breeder, unless I'm mistaken. And even folks who breed to show do not want birds who cannot be safely handled by judges.

"If you have a human aggressive Delaware you have a cull bird" is an opinion not a fact. Your saying well tempered & friendly should be a breed trait is again opinion but it in fact is not a breed trait.
You're wrong about a couple of things. I do in fact "walk among my birds" every day and handle a number of birds every day to check for mites, broken feathers, beaks or nails that need trimming, etc. Also so that they are familiar with being handled as most judges are much more bothered by a bird that flaps & squawks when the judge reaches in the cage than the are by a male that act aggressively. I expect I handle my birds more than most non show people do if for different reasons. What I said was that my children when they were young & my grand daughter now don't go into pens unescorted because that would be dangerous. They stay on one side of the fence & the chickens on the other that doesn't mean I do.
If you have a nonaggressive male that's an aggressive & potent breeder that's good but it does not disprove the belief that GENERALLY aggressive males are more potent breeders. It's a belief among enough long time breeders & has been for long enough that there's probably something to it.
I do agree that agression can be inherited. One of the best Rhode Island Red Bantams I ever bred was very aggressive & so were many of his cockerels. He & several of his sons went to Champion Row more than once. A lot of people wanted to buy those cockerels, aggression & all.
As to what "most breeders" & "folks who breed to show" want I expect I talk with many more of them than you do & I don't know anyone who culls a superior looking male because he's aggressive.

 

[Flock Runner]

i've had pretty good luck with my roos. i had 3 in total, 2 hudans and an americauna. one of the hudans is a real butthead and takes a leap at my legs every chance he gets but he suffered a trama with a piece of string and a barn rafter when he was young so its understandable. plus i dont have the heart to kill him. he also has really bad wings so he always lands on his back and runs away. my other 2 roos are the sweetest things. sadly my other hudan roo was killed by the dogs when he was young so i never figured out what his real temperment was. my americauna though is super friendly. he's a little bit skiddish though. even for him though, durring his teenage he had a nasty habbit of bitting at my feet. he still likes to grab at shoe laces but other than that he's wonderful.

 

[Aves]

Currently I have three 8 month old roosters - standard size, 1 huge new Hampshire red, one huge light Brahma and 1 medium buff Brahma, and 1 hamburg/silkie cross that is 2 years old. I have also had many different breeds and sizes of roosters throughout my many years of raising chickens, and yet I have also never had an aggressive rooster. I will admit I have pondered this since I have seen so many people report aggressiveness in their roos, so I did some research and I came across the below article and as I was reading it I realized that I had instinctively done many of the techniques the author had written about..so maybe it does have to do with the owner and their interactions with the roos on a daily basis...Aves

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bad Bird[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Nasty roosters have long been a part of keeping chickens. Lots of people remember that evil bird from when they were a kid, how he'd wait for you to take your eyes off him for just a minute, then pounce on you. It's a big reason why a lot of people who would like to keep chickens decide against it later on in life. It's a big part of the reason some people just keep hens. That's a shame. When you don't have a rooster around your hens, you miss a huge part of the joy that comes from raising chickens. You miss watching the rooster look out for his hens, taking his girls to dinner, and of course, the peeps!!![/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why it happens (just getting started)[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Chickens operate under a distinct societal structure. There's the boss, he's what's called the Alpha Male. He enjoys first position in everything from liberties with the hens to fighting oncomers, to "leading the pack".
This "pecking order" (yes, that's where the term comes from) goes right down the ladder to the very last rooster with each having his own distinct position. The Beta male will sometimes share duties with the Alpha, but the Beta has to be careful not to overstep his boundaries. The moment the Alpha Male takes exception, the Beta Male will receive a well placed reminder.
There is also an Alpha Hen. The same structure works all the way down to the last hen. It's much more subtle, but if you watch the birds, you'll see which hen is the boss, and where the others lie in the chain.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How the birds keep track[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The societal structure in the coop doesn't remain the same forever. At times, the Beta Male will take a shot at the Alpha Male. This may result in an all out battle, but seldom does it go that far. The Alpha Male consistantly reminds the Beta and all his subordinates who the King is. He does this a number of ways. They include anything from a good, old-fashioned beating, a peck on the backside, or just a posturing where the Boss will put himself between the subordinate and whatever the subordinates' intentions were. The dominant male will often assert himself by showing up when the Beta is mating one of the hens. When he arrives at the act, the Beta will yield, get pushed away, or take a beating.
There's a key here...
It's consistancy (huge point, remember this one!!!). The Alpha is ever-vigilant. He doesn't let up for a second because he knows if he gives his subjects an inch, they'll take a mile. If he lets things start getting away from him, he'll have big problems on his hands.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Back to how the structure changes...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]When an Alpha Male ages, he'll eventually be replaced. This can happen through battle or just by tiring of his duties. When the Alpha is replaced by a younger male, a chain of events takes place. Once the Alpha yields, he's got a huge problem to face. The next rooster down the rung will have a go at him. Then the next, then the next. In a day's time, he'll can drop from Top Dog all the way to the doghouse. Lots of times he'll end up last in the coop, even to the hens (who will also take a shot at him during his descent).
All this time, there never has to be a fight. When the Alpha decides to submit, he's been beaten psychologically and seems so devastated that he's unwilling to take a stance against any of the birds for anything. At this point he's been reduced to simply saving his hide, and he knows it. There's an exception here. If the Alpha is replaced because he's injured or sick, when recovered, he's going to come screaming back to take his rightful place.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Changing places takes a million forms...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The scenarios I've mentioned are only a few of the many social happenings that take place in a flock. A flock's societal interactions are every bit as diverse as ours. The birds feel, care, protect, watch, learn, remember and hurt. They don't wonder, worry, think or guess. They don't have as large a brain as we do, and they don't hide their emotions well. They act on them outwardly and immediately. They show their emotions on the surface constantly. They don't have "Should I?" moments like we do. They act, reassess, act and reassess. They play our their lives rather than mulling about them. They are driven simply by necessity and survival. Survival of the Individual. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What about survival of the flock?[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Chickens don't worry. They don't suppose, think or wonder. They have no idea that the way they do things is why they are still here. The fact that they've survived all these years, aside from domestication (or is that in spite of domestication?), is a byproduct of the way they carry on their lives. Chickens look out for each other as a byproduct of their nature. They see something that scares them, they chatter, and the other birds know that the chatter means "Ohhhh Boy". They run for cover to save their lives. If the Alpha Male figures out what the danger was that set him off in the first place, and he realizes he's the badder cat, he'll stand his ground and square off. If he doesn't figure out what it is that scared him, he's outta there, and everyone that isn't ahead of him will be behind him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Okay Shilala, you're losing me here...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]All this brings us to how we keep our roosters in line. There's two ways. The first way is to develop a deep and sincere love for soup. I love soup. Chicken Noodle, Chicken Vegetable, Chicken and Dumplings, Chicken and Rice, doesn't matter. I love it all.
The second way is to be the Alpha Male of your flock.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How in the world do I get to be Alpha Male?[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Earlier on the page I asked that you remember something. It was CONSISTANCY. In order to keep roosters in line, you must establish a dominant position and be ever-vigilant. You have to act like a chicken (less the flapping, crowing, and pecking). You have a HUGE advantage here. You can think, chickens can't (regardless of what the science class experiment showed).
Because of this great gift you've received, you've conquered an age-old problem. You're already smarter than the object you're working with.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We're already well on our way...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Chickens begin earning a spot in their society very shortly after they come out of the egg. At a week old, they're sparring. (Sparring is the play fighting that chicks do.) The females spar with females, the males spar with males, and the males spar with females. The sorting out has begun. As the birds age, size and pluck determine who's who.
THIS IS WHERE YOU MAKE YOUR FIRST IMPACT!!!
The moment you see chicks sparring, step in. Use your fingers to push them apart. Knock them down. Stay and watch.
As soon as another pair (or the same pair) start up again, take control. Use your fingers to push them apart. Knock them down. Stay and watch.
DO NOT hurt the chicks. Hurting them helps nothing. It's not necessary, it's counter-productive, and it's just plain mean. If I find out you hurt them, I will swing by and, well, you get the picture.
At a point, the sparring will stop. It won't stop all the time, just when you are there. If it does happen, it's time to reassert your dominance. VIGILANCE is the key.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now that you're King...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]There's a few things you need to do as the birds grow. These things will assert your dominance and remind ALL the birds who's the boss...
1.) As soon as you can tell the Roosters from the Hens, you've got to single them out. If you take feed or treats to your birds, never let the roosters come to the feed first. Start with a nasty look, then a nudge, then a swat, then a slap. Whatever it takes. If it's got to escalate to a boot to get the point across, so be it. A rooster won't let other roosters come to the feed until his hens do. Don't you do it, either. A good King is a kind and merciful King. Once the hens have begun eating, relent. Stay close by, but relax your posture and allow the Roosters to the food.
All it takes to keep the Roosters at bay is VIGILANCE. You need to take this approach EVERY TIME YOU FEED. It only takes a few minutes, and it will pay major dividends down the road.
2.) Never let a rooster assert his dominance in your presence. That means to you or any other bird. If a rooster grabs another rooster by the butt while you're around, swat him. If you can't get a swat in, chase him. Corner him if you can. Scare him. Deliver the message that only YOU take those liberties with the flock.
3.) Never let a rooster mate one of YOUR hens in your presence. Remember, whether you are a boy or a girl, man or woman, you are the Alpha Male in this picture. If a rooster pins a hen in your close proximity, knock him off of her. If it's happening a distance away, take a run at him. If he sees you coming and persists, you need to get to him and give chase. If you've been consitant over his lifespan, he'll get off the hen as soon as you act like you're coming after him.
4.) Don't hunker. Don't crouch. Don't try to "talk in" a bird who's scared of you. Coochy-coo smootchy is not the way to gather up a rooster, ever. A rooster should NEVER want to approach you or touch you. He SHOULD be at ease with your presence. If you want to pick him up, then pick him up. Love him all you want once you've got him. Pat him on the butt when you sit him down.
Don't ever assume a submissive posture with him, or he might just take your eyes out when you're expecting it least.
5.) Handle your roosters!!! Gather them up, preen them, fuss over them. Make them know that you are not going to hurt them, you're just having your way with them. This reinforces their submission splendidly, and strengthens your bond with your birds.
The rooster has no idea that you are in love with him. All he knows is that you've got him, and you're not going to hurt him. That's good enough for him.
6.) If you even get a moment's sense that a rooster is getting too comfortable around you, take a swipe at him. It may seem like senseless aggression. To you it is. To a rooster, it's life. It's what he understands. A swipe is vigilance, a swipe is reinforcement, a swipe is consistancy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]My rooster is dancing and dragging his wing at me, what's that mean?[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]If you've spent your time doing your due diligance, this will NEVER happen. If it does, it's simply your rooster telling you "I really dig high velocity lead", or "I absolutely love sharp, cold steel". Give him what he wants and then start doing all the things I suggested. Do it better this time. Do it more often. SPEND TIME WITH YOUR BIRDS!!!
If you don't have time to spend with your birds, that's not a sin. The sin creeps in when you don't have time and you still keep birds.
A lot of times, as with any pet, people enjoy the drudgery of cleaning and feeding and watering while the critter is young, sweet and cute. When the pet gets older, it's not as much fun. Attention wanes, care slips, and the pet suffers.
A guinea pig can take it. A cat can take it. A hermit crab prefers it.
A rooster won't accept it, and will pay you back.
He'll remind you by sending you for stitches. He'll remind you by tearing your pants. If he's exceptionally talented, he'll send you to the eye doctor.
Remember the merciful King? Roosters don't do mercy. They do what comes naturally. If you haven't enforced to him what's natural in your world, he'll be more than happy to show you what's natural in his.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A parting thought...[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]If a bird goes bad, soup is good. While you're enjoying your meal, take a moment to rethink what you're doing. Realize that your dinner is a direct result of how busy you are. If time is too scarce in your life to do what your animals need, make freezer space or at least consider finding another home for your birds. Just because you don't have time now does not mean you can't have birds later on in life. Not having time for the birds will turn an extremely joyful hobby into a miserable and dangerous one.
Being a good steward to God's creatures is a choice that you've made on your own. Now that you've made it, you are responsible for the animal's care. Finding homes for birds that you can no longer care for is not irresponsible, and it doesn't mean that you are defeated.
It simply means that you are keeping up your part of the bargain!!![/FONT]​

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: NYReds, thank you for saying that. I have always told people this and I appreciate that you have confirmed it.


Bill, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on some points. I value something you don't and most backyard flock owners do not want a rooster they cannot trust. I speak for the backyard hobby breeders and just the folks who want pets or egg producers for their families to enjoy on a daily basis, which is mostly what BYC is comprised of, though we value the real breeders who contribute their experience and knowledge here. Your purpose is much different than theirs.

I am admittedly not into breeding anything at the moment and do not show, but I have had beautiful Cree line Ameraucanas, beautiful heritage Stukel line Barred Rocks and breeder quality Delawares with the accompanying roosters.

I have culled Delaware males for exactly the behavior we are talking about in this thread. That Delaware line was culled by the breeder for temperament and she and others will tell you that is part of the breed trait. I have culled an Ameraucana for the same behavior. My BR male flogged me once as a youngster, but wasn't really aggressive, just very hyper and needed more ranging time than I could give him. He's calmed down considerably since he went to live with my friend who is continuing to breed the Stukel line Rocks. If he had become super aggressive, I'd have culled him, too, though he was a stunning example of the breed.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Blue Andaulisans are also mean I gave them away too.

I breed Andalusians and I have only had one mean rooster. He was great until he was about one year old and then his personality changed drastically. I got rid of him. He was the exception and far from the rule.

I'm only posting this because I don't want people to take that advice and not buy Andalusians because "they are mean." Perhaps you got birds from a hatchery? This is not to say that only hatchery birds are aggressive. We had a black star rooster who was the very best rooster ever. My son, who was perhaps 8 years old at the time used to chase him around to catch and hold him. This rooster, we named him Colonel, would stay just out of reach of my son. Then he would let him get closer and eventually, my son always caught him. There was never a fight to get away or anything like it. My son would hold and pet him for a while and then let him go. Colonel didn't have a mean bone in his body!

My Andalusian boys are the sweetest things on two legs! It's the girls who tend to be more aggresive, but only with each other. With that in mind, you have to provide plenty of room for them. I have one male right now who I have to watch and he watches me. He doesn't trust me and I don't really trust him but he's never attacked me. He's just being what he is, a flock guard. He doesn't live with my girls because I'm pretty sure that if he did and I picked up one of "his" girls and she made even a small squawk, he'd be on me. So, I avoid the situation. I used him for breeding this past spring and I got some of the most lovely chicks! I'm really happy with my hatch this year.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Aves, thank you for the Rooster Psychology post... "The Bad Bird" I copied it and am keeping it. Good advice.