Are these ladies actually marans? Or just jersey giants?

[Painted Calls]

Colt has bred and raised practically every animal with the rare acception of lions, tigers, and bears.

Oh my!

 

[cherrynberry]

I have worked with a large number of animals ranging from livestock and poultry, freshwater and marine fish, plants, and corals, reptiles, exotics, caged birds, etc. It's not really a point worth arguing as there's nothing to argue about. lol It's obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes and see.

I just don't get why you think "Americans" in general are bad with breeding show stock? Care to explain? Is it because of the American SOP?

Cause I know many "Americans" that I look up to in terms of show stock. Not sure why race has anything to do with it.

 

[Fluffy Lambs]

I just don't get why you think "Americans" in general are bad with breeding show stock? Care to explain? Is it because of the American SOP?

Cause I know many "Americans" that I look up to in terms of show stock. Not sure why race has anything to do with it.

I thought this was all a joke but is it a real argument now?

 

[cherrynberry]

I thought this was all a joke but is it a real argument now?

Maybe it is. I have never really been the kind to "joke" around much. Especially since I rarely talk to younger kids. I do not find it funny though. But like Margo and Bean knows, I find very few things funny enough that I actually laugh.

 

[Shadrach]

There are circumstances that need to be taken into considertation.
1) Chickens were not native to the USA or Australia and not to the UK either.
2) The USA and Australia are a long way from Europe and Asia where there have been chickens for hundreds, if not thouusands of years.
3) It is not only very expensive to import chickens into these countriies, it's also very difficult due to quarantine and livestock impotation restrictions.
4) In the USA and Australia the breeding stock especially for the small scale breeder is very limited, so introducing new blood is both expensive and complicated.
The UK fared reasonably well with some breeds and until Brexit it was possible to import 5 chickens I believe without any restrictions. Obviouusly in the rest of Europe it was relatively easy to cross borders (as we did for the Marans) and get not only new blood, but new blood that hadn't been messed about with by breeders trying to make money.
Some people I knew in Spain went to the countries the breed originally came form to get either eggs, or live chickens. This isn't easy if you liive in the USA or Australia.
The net result is sever inbreeding in many breeds and an overall reduction in genetic quality.
Chickens with good genetics will live to ten to twelve years as a rough average.
I had eight to ten year olds and those that died earlier died from predation usually, not ill heallth.

 

[Hannahnic14]

What is happening to my thread right now???

 

[Painted Calls]

What is happening to my thread right now???

 

[ColtHandorf]

Elk!?

Neighbors had them on their exotic deer farm. But I wouldn't really count those. lol

Oh my!

I just don't get why you think "Americans" in general are bad with breeding show stock? Care to explain? Is it because of the American SOP?

Cause I know many "Americans" that I look up to in terms of show stock. Not sure why race has anything to do with it.

First of all, American is not a race as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau.

Second of all, It's not that we are bad with breeding show stock. The breeders that adhere to stringent Standards of Perfection outlined by the various clubs and organizations obviously breed the animal of choice to the SOP or there wouldn't be much point in breeding animals for show as they wouldn't place.

My issue comes from the fact that Americans have developed very little in the context of original creations/breeds. What we are very good at, is bastardizing something we've imported and pretended that our version is somehow better than the original stock we imported from its country of origin.

There are a lot of examples I can think of but we'll go with some I can easily find images and anecdotes for off the top of my head.

Zebra Finches:

These are commonly kept by amateur and advanced avicultural hobbyists. In the wild Zebras are small birds that hail from Australia.

After their discovery, they were imported to Europe where caged birds were very popular. Over the years the English, German, and Dutch aviculturists bred a large, calm bird with an easy-going demeanor.

Australia banned the export of their native species many years ago. So the Zebra finches we have here in the states are descended from European imports decades ago. Over the course of their breeding, we (Americans) down-sized the bird, so they more closely resemble the wild birds. However, a lot of our Zebras are extremely pugnacious and hard to keep in mixed aviaries. Also, unless people are seriously interested in breeding them, mutations are mixed and matched so that it is very hard to birds that are pure for their mutation. Society finches (a species developed in captivity from various Lonchura crosses in Asia and doesn't exist in the wild at all) are also very difficult to find in any form of pure mutation.

Additionally, caged bird keeping is relatively under-developed in our country. Hard to breed species like waxbills and others that require live food are nearly impossible to breed as we don't have "pinkies" (live maggots, termites, ant larvae, etc readily available for breeders to offer those species. Our breeding setups are also vastly different. In the US cages are often open with wire bars all the way around.

Birds breed better in more private settings, so the Euro, box-style breeding cages are more effective. Even though we know this, the majority of breeders cannot source those cages in the states and must struggle with breeding birds that require privacy and no nest checks in open settings where they are more likely to toss their offspring or abandon their nests.

Budgies/Parakeets:

Similar to the Zebra Finch, we've undone the work that the European breeders put into the budgies.

You can purchase American parakeets at wholesale for under $7.50. Budgies on the other hand, are generally only available from breeders and can range anywhere from $50-$300 each. More work is required to breed English Budgies though, so why do that when you can mass produce hundreds of birds in flights and sell them with no idea who is related to who or what mutations they carry?

Orpingtons:

The Orpington was developed in England by William Cook. They are English. It drives me absolutely insane to hear APA Orpington breeders tell people there's no such thing as an English Oprington because all Orpingtons are English. Of course they are. But that deosn't mean that in America the Orpingtons that adhere to the APA's SOP are nothing like the birds in Europe that founded the breed. And the American hatchery "Orpingtons" are the worst examples of the breed.

I suppose my issue stems from breeders breeding indiscriminately and diluting the quality of a breed for no other reason than they did and then proposing a new breed standard in order for the animal to meet a Standard that allows it to be "show-quality".

And the term show-quality is mis-leading. I could place at an NFSS show and for three generations I could sell my birds as show-quality. Even if I was breeding for quantity and not quality.

I am not saying that all breeders are bad. What I'm saying is that due to the capitalist, get-rich-quick schemes that plagues the US large numbers of people get into breeding animals for the money and not the animal. Chickens are one of the easiest things to see that in. Go to Craigslist, Facbook, and even on here and you can see people selling birds that they have no idea what they are or are poor representations of their breed.

I joke about UltRA RAIRE lAvenDAR OrphliNgtONs but it's no joke. People actually list those horrible, ratty birds like that and people that don't know any better buy them thinking they are going to be beautiful birds and instead get birds with the shredder gene and a body that looks more like a Leghorn than an Orpington. No joke, a friend of mine bought two 'English Lavender Orpington pullets" that were both cockerels (and obviously so, and were certainly not English. She didn't know any better but the "breeder" still hoodwinked her. When I told her they were both male she asked the breeder to exchange them for pullets and she told her if she didn't like it she could sell them to someone else. At $60 a piece which is what she paid for them when she thought they were pullets.

**Also to the OP I apologize for distracting from the point of your original post and query.

I thought this was all a joke but is it a real argument now?

It's not an argument.

Maybe it is. I have never really been the kind to "joke" around much. Especially since I rarely talk to younger kids. I do not find it funny though. But like Margo and Bean knows, I find very few things funny enough that I actually laugh.

Do you think I'm a younger kid? lol

 

[ColtHandorf]

What is happening to my thread right now???

I apologized!

 

[cherrynberry]

Neighbors had them on their exotic deer farm. But I wouldn't really count those. lol

First of all, American is not a race as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau.

Second of all, It's not that we are bad with breeding show stock. The breeders that adhere to stringent Standards of Perfection outlined by the various clubs and organizations obviously breed the animal of choice to the SOP or there wouldn't be much point in breeding animals for show as they wouldn't place.

My issue comes from the fact that Americans have developed very little in the context of original creations/breeds. What we are very good at, is bastardizing something we've imported and pretended that our version is somehow better than the original stock we imported from its country of origin.

There are a lot of examples I can think of but we'll go with some I can easily find images and anecdotes for off the top of my head.

Zebra Finches:

These are commonly kept by amateur and advanced avicultural hobbyists. In the wild Zebras are small birds that hail from Australia.
View attachment 2902303
After their discovery, they were imported to Europe where caged birds were very popular. Over the years the English, German, and Dutch aviculturists bred a large, calm bird with an easy-going demeanor.
View attachment 2902304View attachment 2902305View attachment 2902306
Australia banned the export of their native species many years ago. So the Zebra finches we have here in the states are descended from European imports decades ago. Over the course of their breeding, we (Americans) down-sized the bird, so they more closely resemble the wild birds. However, a lot of our Zebras are extremely pugnacious and hard to keep in mixed aviaries. Also, unless people are seriously interested in breeding them, mutations are mixed and matched so that it is very hard to birds that are pure for their mutation. Society finches (a species developed in captivity from various Lonchura crosses in Asia and doesn't exist in the wild at all) are also very difficult to find in any form of pure mutation.
View attachment 2902312
Additionally, caged bird keeping is relatively under-developed in our country. Hard to breed species like waxbills and others that require live food are nearly impossible to breed as we don't have "pinkies" (live maggots, termites, ant larvae, etc readily available for breeders to offer those species. Our breeding setups are also vastly different. In the US cages are often open with wire bars all the way around.
View attachment 2902314View attachment 2902315
Birds breed better in more private settings, so the Euro, box-style breeding cages are more effective. Even though we know this, the majority of breeders cannot source those cages in the states and must struggle with breeding birds that require privacy and no nest checks in open settings where they are more likely to toss their offspring or abandon their nests.

Budgies/Parakeets:

Similar to the Zebra Finch, we've undone the work that the European breeders put into the budgies.
View attachment 2902316View attachment 2902317
You can purchase American parakeets at wholesale for under $7.50. Budgies on the other hand, are generally only available from breeders and can range anywhere from $50-$300 each. More work is required to breed English Budgies though, so why do that when you can mass produce hundreds of birds in flights and sell them with no idea who is related to who or what mutations they carry?

Orpingtons:

The Orpington was developed in England by William Cook. They are English. It drives me absolutely insane to hear APA Orpington breeders tell people there's no such thing as an English Oprington because all Orpingtons are English. Of course they are. But that deosn't mean that in America the Orpingtons that adhere to the APA's SOP are nothing like the birds in Europe that founded the breed. And the American hatchery "Orpingtons" are the worst examples of the breed.

View attachment 2902338

I suppose my issue stems from breeders breeding indiscriminately and diluting the quality of a breed for no other reason than they did and then proposing a new breed standard in order for the animal to meet a Standard that allows it to be "show-quality".

And the term show-quality is mis-leading. I could place at an NFSS show and for three generations I could sell my birds as show-quality. Even if I was breeding for quantity and not quality.

I am not saying that all breeders are bad. What I'm saying is that due to the capitalist, get-rich-quick schemes that plagues the US large numbers of people get into breeding animals for the money and not the animal. Chickens are one of the easiest things to see that in. Go to Craigslist, Facbook, and even on here and you can see people selling birds that they have no idea what they are or are poor representations of their breed.

I joke about UltRA RAIRE lAvenDAR OrphliNgtONs but it's no joke. People actually list those horrible, ratty birds like that and people that don't know any better buy them thinking they are going to be beautiful birds and instead get birds with the shredder gene and a body that looks more like a Leghorn than an Orpington. No joke, a friend of mine bought two 'English Lavender Orpington pullets" that were both cockerels (and obviously so, and were certainly not English. She didn't know any better but the "breeder" still hoodwinked her. When I told her they were both male she asked the breeder to exchange them for pullets and she told her if she didn't like it she could sell them to someone else. At $60 a piece which is what she paid for them when she thought they were pullets.

**Also to the OP I apologize for distracting from the point of your original post and query.



It's not an argument.

Do you think I'm a younger kid? lol

No I do not think you are a younger kid!

Just that I tend to talk with older folks (my neighborhood mainly consists of people who have been there for many generations and most of the kids have grown and moved out). And most of the things they talk about are different. I do find several jokes quite funny though. I just don't really get what younger people talk about these days.