Arizona Tragedy - WWYD?

[nonseq]

There are legitimate reasons to refuse meds as well. Some of the side effects are extremely unpleasant. Some cause permanent neurological damage. Very often when a person is in the psych ward, the staff tries this med, then that med , then this med with that other med in order to get the desired result. Whatever that result might be. Staff doesn't usually TELL the poor patient what the side effects are or how that med may make the person feel. Pt is already confused, depressed, not exactly holding hands with the common reality and then the drug kicks it even further from normal and makes the Pt feel physically ill as well.


I was taught that during the 70s when the push for de-institutionalization of psych Pts was at its height, plans were drawn up for neighborhood MH centers/clinics where psych Pts could be maintained. The money never materialized and these clinics were never widely implemented. The mentally ill were pretty much hung out to dry.

We don't even have the infrastructure to effectively treat our psych population.

 

[PineappleMama]

^That's true too. And many meds take some time to get stable, and often the powers that be/the patient don't bother waiting the full time to see what that pill can do before jumping to something else... shock to the system to say the least... and then about the time you're over that shock and starting to get the meds working they switch because they aren't working...

REALLY? I can understand if the patients were running the place, not trained, and not all there... but for doctors who are trained, know this takes time, to hop around like that just boggles me.

 

[nonseq]

It is extremely frustrating when dealing with children or with elderly psych patients. They often seem to have no voice for themselves, no advocates, no one in their corner or looking out for their best interests. They often seem to be treated as problems that need to be solved as quickly and cheaply as possible. It used to make me angry.

 

[Carols Clucks]

I think you also have to recognize, that until a crisis happens, most parents really do not want to see just how sick their own child might be. And even it they do see it, it hard to get the kind of help that the child needs.

A close friend of my moms has a son that enlisted (not at 18 but older), they went and begged the recruiter not to accept him. They told them he was not stable. They hired a lawyer to try to get him out of the military. He was in trouble almost the whole time he was in boot camp and yet they sent him to Iraq. He did not make it through the first week before his best buddy died in his arms.

He was armed and intended to die by the police shooting him. Many of you watched it play out on the news.

His parents knew he had NO business being in the military, the military was told he had no business being there, they did everything they could to try to stop the situation. It could have ended so tragically, thankfully no one was hurt.

It is easy to say some one should have stopped this, but it is very hard to get the help you need some times.

 

[kla37]

Quote:
In my experience, the military doesn't give a crap. They just want warm bodies to fill the jobs they need to have filled.

 

[PineappleMama]

Even having an advocate isn't going to do much, even if the advocate is a doctor and knows through years of training just what this patient needs, doesn't mean he'll be able to get it... judge can say no, the hospital admin can say no...

And that's to a trained doctor, not likely many will drop what they're doing, ignore all other patients, to put the time in to fight like that... but for a regular person, social worker, etc they prolly wouldn't even get a court date. And there's all the fees involved, lawyers, etc... where's that coming from? SO many things revolve around money, ala those centers you mentioned...

Also, remember there's the fear too... fear that if you have a bad day you'll be locked up against your will and trapped. Most don't think about it, but when they do they typically don't like laws that give a doctor, judge, etc total power over another person. Just in case you know? Someday it might be them having a bad day... etc. I think maybe that's a part of the problem. Folks don't want dangerous people on the street, scream 'why didn't you do something'... but at the same time they aren't willing to risk themselves being locked up, free will taken so they want those laws loose enough that they can wiggle free should the need arise. A theory, prolly way off, but I can see some folks feeling that way.

 

[I have WHAT in my yard?]

I know that now we know that many of the things that were once considered possession by the devil are actually chemical imbalances in the brain. Some are treatable and some are not so much. I have this fantasy where one day people will say, "Oh, you have major depression? Here we'll do this little tweak and it goes away. YOu have schizophrenia? Here this little injection cures that."

In the mean time, we have nothing that good or that clear. I have had to deal with students that were this ill and it is not easy. Most of them are as lost and confused by what their brain is doing as their family members are. They're confused and angry and their families are too.

I lost a BIL to schizophrenia. He was brilliant (as many schizophrenics are) and the drugs that took away the delusions also took away his ability to think clearly. At least to him it did. He was sick enough to try to convince the local squirrels he was god. But clear enough to tell me that he knew the pills would only rein him in, not cure him. He became a danger to his wife and child - he thought the baby was possessed and needed to be cleansed with boiling water - fortunately his wife never left him alone with the baby and she called police to have him committed. He would not say the threatening things about the baby in front of the police so it was considered a custody dispute. She took the baby and went into hiding. We all helped her. He eventually committed suicide. It was a great loss. He really was brilliant and very tortured by his illness.

I do not know how to balance the rights of the mentally ill against the rights of society. But, I do know that the powers that be - government and insurers alike - hide behind the "rights" of the mentally ill when they simply do not want to pay for treatment.

Mentally ill people are not weak, nor are they poorly raised, nor are they willfully choosing to torture their families. They are mentally ill. It is a biochemical illness that shows its symptoms in behavior and thinking problems. Someday.....

 

[PineappleMama]

Well said What. And don't forget that the mentally ill aren't the ones in control of the market. Sure they NEED meds, and a judge can order they be given and them not have to pay, but what is that compared to a pill like viagra? One you don't NEED to live, just one you want, but one that many are willing to pay out the nose for. So you see millions of dollars put into research for that sort of thing because it's profitable, while something not dollar wise profitable is left alone. That's the business side, but also most folks still don't like talking about mental illness. They'd rather discuss viagra than depression, they'd rather own up to needing viagra than needing prozac. It's getting better, but it's still there. Also unless something effects you directly it's not likely you care about it much. And since mental illness isn't something many talk about, not something that's studied enough IMO, just not enough known by the general population, well it's just not something that those outside the circle realize is such a problem... until something like AZ happens. Then there's a flash in the pan outcry, and then it's forgotten by the majority. The families effected still care, but they're small. Maybe a year from now, five years from now, a bill might be on the docket to change things and this person might testify... folks watching the news might take note... but then they might instead pay more attention to the economy, unemployment, terrorists, gas prices, etc. Things like this just fall by the wayside in comparison to those things that have a direct effect on people's day to day lives.

And then you throw in the rights stuff, privacy stuff, politically correct stuff... the folks who do see it but don't want to announce to the world that it's in their family... SO many things combine to keep this subject underfunded, understudied and just flat out ignored. How can you fight that, change that? If you get the millions for study, you still have to find those who want to study it. Amazing miracle drug/surgery is found... you can't force anyone to take/do it. If you can't force them to take even a miracle drug, thus guaranteeing sales to the companies and making it worth their wild to research and make it... then why should they invest in doing so?

I'm truly at a loss... I can see so many problems contributing to this, but I can't see a way to fix it. Not without handing a doctor, or a hospital, or the government the right to imprison folks who haven't actually harmed anyone. Which I am SO not willing to do. Especially when the science is SO lacking. I won't give anyone the power to use a person as a guinea pig, and that's basically where we're at on human brain studies. *sigh* But at the same time, without that kind of power, we're going to continue to see AZ things happen, we'll continue to see people struggle every day, or maybe not see is more accurate. Gah.

 

[mom'sfolly]

I feel for these families. Even if they recognize the illness, it is almost impossible to do something for someone else with mental illness. Many of them don't recognize that they are ill, or don't like the side effects of the drugs or don't like the flatness that being stabilized means.

I have a mentally ill family member. Her illness is made worse when her thyroid levels are off. The last time she had a bad episode, she was delusional and completely irrational. She moved out of her home and into a hotel. She paid a retainer to a cab company to take her where ever she wanted, whenever she wanted (she drives and has a car). She would pay the cab driver to bring her food and booze, but normally she doesn't drink at all. She wouldn't let the only family member living in town help her. She wouldn't even open the door for my sister. She would only, occasionally speak to her through a partially open window. But she invited a homeless man she had just met into her hotel room to "keep her from screaming at night". She told him to stop her any way he could. She wasn't eating regularly, was drinking to combat the delusions and to sleep and was talking about moving out of state to her home town. She was making accusations about people that were completely untrue, but were as real as breath to her. We were terrified that she would get on a plane, go "home" to where she was raised, and end up homeless because she hadn't lived there for 50+ years.

My sister contacted all the mental health organizations in the town, she contacted the police and judges (she worked for the court system), and she tried every possible avenue for commitment. There wasn't anything she could do. The conditions are "immediate danger to oneself or others". Because she was not waving a gun or actively attempting suicide, the danger was not immediate. An irrational middle of the night call to the cab company got her an emergency call, and the emergency call got a 72 hour psych hold. She stayed after that.

Several years later she is back home, working and living on her own. My most dreadful fear is that this happens again. The helplessness and frustration are awful. I hope my mother can live her remaining years without her disease becoming so bad again. She is off her meds, because she doesn't acknowledge she has an illness. We can't talk about what happened because it makes her so angry, after all we were just picking on her. The doctor doesn't know what he was talking about, and just made the diagnosis up out of his head. The delusions were real, and the crime committed so bad that she had to leave her home. You can't talk to the delusions because they were completely real for her. My mother at the time was armed, delusional and dangerous. I and my family members were helpless, and nearly hopeless, and at least in my case, extremely fearful that my mother would kill someone or herself. The amount of dread and anxiety is horrible....

So I feel for these families. Even if they had done everything possible, it still wouldn't have been enough to stop this. You cannot force people to take medication; and it is extremely hard to get even a 72 hour psych hold. Even if every rant this man had made had been forwarded to authorities before the attack, they could not have held him. Six people are dead, and others are gravely injured because we don't have a sane mental health policy in this country.

So I don't know what I'd do in this case. I tried everything I could in the case I had, and it turned out okay. But if my mom had decided to go after the man she thought assaulted her, he would be dead and she would be in prison; and our family would be the one wondering what else we could have done.

 

[Godsgrl]

Pineapple, I so relate to what you have written. (((many hugs))) My niece is bi-polar, and her mom sent her out here to live with us. It was a total nightmare, and took a huge toll on our family. From the suicide attempts, (or were they just faked for attention? I'll never know) to the threatening, to the grand ideas when on a high, to the destruction of our house....I almost had a nervous breakdown. I sent her home, and never care to see her again. If she even thinks about coming within a 100 mile range of our home, I'll file a restraining order. Mental illness is so tough, and you're right, if the sufferer won't take the initiative, there isn't anything family or loved ones can do.