At a complete loss, odd illness!

[Nambroth]

So, the thing with vaccinating is that it's a bit like the flu... The virus mutates, and some forms are resistant. For example, from my experience, the vaccination protocol used by Greenfire Farms (a hatchery out of Florida) has little to no effect in our area. In fact, I have only lost vaccinated birds from the breeds that have some GFF stock in them. My non-vaccinated birds within those breeds have had no issues. Again, it's a strange virus.
The silver lining is that so far, it hasn't devastated my flock. In fact, I haven't seen it for a number of months and have gotten almost all my new pullets past the point of lay successfully. (Some little ones are to be determined yet.) I have changed the way I manage them - but I probably should have been managing them this way from the beginning!
It may be a bit ugly for a while, but keep up the good work and feel free to rant any time!

What breeds do you have from GFF? I just got a flock of Bielefelders from them and now I'm a bit terrified, because I'm completely and hopelessly in love with these chicks.

 

[townchicks]

@Lutman_Chick I am sorry about the loss of your beautiful hen. I don't know much about treating chickens, hence I went scrambling to my vet when my EE stopped eating and sat around all hunched up. We're not sure, but the vet thinks it may have been an internal lay. Anyway, she gave fluids and an anti-inflammatory and she's doing great now. She came home with a prescription of carprofen (Rimadyl) I'm just wondering, if Mareck's causes lesions on the nerves if anti-imflamatories like NSAIDs would be helpful for those birds affected by it. Does anyone know if that has been done in Marecks birds? As I live in California, it would be helpful to be prepared.

 

[Nambroth]

@Lutman_Chick I am sorry about the loss of your beautiful hen. I don't know much about treating chickens, hence I went scrambling to my vet when my EE stopped eating and sat around all hunched up. We're not sure, but the vet thinks it may have been an internal lay. Anyway, she gave fluids and an anti-inflammatory and she's doing great now. She came home with a prescription of carprofen (Rimadyl) I'm just wondering, if Mareck's causes lesions on the nerves if anti-imflamatories like NSAIDs would be helpful for those birds affected by it. Does anyone know if that has been done in Marecks birds? As I live in California, it would be helpful to be prepared.

The lesions on the nerves are often severe enough to cause paralysis, and are often (not always, but normally) accompanied by fatal tumor growth throughout vital organs. The disease often progresses rapidly, and sadly anti-inflammatory use is like trying to put a bandaid on a severed limb. It may help slightly, but the disease is way too invasive and aggressive in most cases (that show symptoms) for there to be any real benefit. I don't think it would harm the bird to use avian-appropriate anti-inflammatory medications (e.g. Metacam), but it is unlikely to cause any improvement, either.

 

[orrpeople]

What breeds do you have from GFF? I just got a flock of Bielefelders from them and now I'm a bit terrified, because I'm completely and hopelessly in love with these chicks.

I got Isbars (Silverudd's Blues), 55 Flowery Hens, and East Frisian gulls. I lost 2 55s and two EFGs. I haven't lost a single Silverudd's Blue - and they've been fabulously prolific! I have lost a couple Bieles, but both unvaccinated. The greater problem I'm having w the Bieles is that apparently GFF got some impurities in their stock after 2011 and they have white earlobes and a bit of a legbar type body. But that's another topic for another day. They are beautiful, full-figured ladies!

 

[orrpeople]

@Lutman_Chick I am sorry about the loss of your beautiful hen. I don't know much about treating chickens, hence I went scrambling to my vet when my EE stopped eating and sat around all hunched up. We're not sure, but the vet thinks it may have been an internal lay. Anyway, she gave fluids and an anti-inflammatory and she's doing great now. She came home with a prescription of carprofen (Rimadyl) I'm just wondering, if Mareck's causes lesions on the nerves if anti-imflamatories like NSAIDs would be helpful for those birds affected by it. Does anyone know if that has been done in Marecks birds? As I live in California, it would be helpful to be prepared.

I have found the best way to "fight" the disease is with vitamins and increased protein. Nutridrench has become my very best friend. It worked almost miraculously if I could catch early symptoms. Somehow, giving the bird's own immune system some "fighting power" seemed to be the best bet. I also use an antimicrobial in their water to keep bacteria from compromising their systems.
We know there's no cure, but there are certainly says to stem its progress.

 

[Nambroth]

I got Isbars (Silverudd's Blues), 55 Flowery Hens, and East Frisian gulls. I lost 2 55s and two EFGs. I haven't lost a single Silverudd's Blue - and they've been fabulously prolific! I have lost a couple Bieles, but both unvaccinated. The greater problem I'm having w the Bieles is that apparently GFF got some impurities in their stock after 2011 and they have white earlobes and a bit of a legbar type body. But that's another topic for another day. They are beautiful, full-figured ladies!

Thank you for letting me know! I'll try not to lie awake too long at night. My birds are pets and while I understand the frustration with the post-2011 Bieles (truly), I just want healthy birds and if they are healthy I don't mind their type or the white earlobe leakage.

 

[rebrascora]

The lesions on the nerves are often severe enough to cause paralysis, and are often (not always, but normally) accompanied by fatal tumor growth throughout vital organs. The disease often progresses rapidly, and sadly anti-inflammatory use is like trying to put a bandaid on a severed limb. It may help slightly, but the disease is way too invasive and aggressive in most cases (that show symptoms) for there to be any real benefit. I don't think it would harm the bird to use avian-appropriate anti-inflammatory medications (e.g. Metacam), but it is unlikely to cause any improvement, either.

This is not my general experience with Marek's which may be down to it being a milder strain. Yes I get some that follow this route but I also get some that have paralysis for a few days and suddenly come right and can go months or even over a year without any apparent health issues and I get some that take months to make a limited or occasionally full recovery and a few that take several months of fighting it before it overwhelms them.

I agree with @orrpeople that vitamin supplementation to support the immune system is very helpful and I do wonder if at least some of the many threads here on the forum where vitamin deficiency is suggested or diagnosed are in fact Marek's. I also believe that botulism is much, much less common than Marek's but people want to believe anything rather than that they have Marek's.

@Lutman_Chick

Is it lice or mites that you are having problems with? Lice live and breed on the chicken and will thrive when the bird is not feeling well or dust bathing opportunities are limited due to environmental conditions wet or frozen conditions. So Marek's may be causing birds to feel under the weather and not dust bath properly and lice are taking advantage of that, rather than lice triggering an outbreak. Whereas, mites live and breed in the coop and crawl onto the chickens to feed at night and there is not a lot that the chickens can do about that and it is more down to climatic conditions once they start breeding, but the constant loss of blood due to mites could cause stress and trigger an outbreak.

Marek's will make birds more prone to a range of other illnesses as well like coccidiosis, respiratory illnesses and even worms, because it compromises the immune system.
I've also had some die suddenly without any apparent symptoms due to visceral tumours.

I think once you have the disease diagnosed and learn a bit more about it you can then look back and recognise symptoms in birds that were sick or died before the diagnosed bird or your knowledge of the disease.
I now do my own necropsies on birds that die to add to my knowledge and understanding of it.

 

[Nambroth]

This is not my general experience with Marek's which may be down to it being a milder strain. Yes I get some that follow this route but I also get some that have paralysis for a few days and suddenly come right and can go months or even over a year without any apparent health issues and I get some that take months to make a limited or occasionally full recovery and a few that take several months of fighting it before it overwhelms them.

This is a good reminder that it may present itself differently in different regions, depending on the strains those regions experience. Myself and others (especially in Marek's-Prone-California) have experienced (frequently, but not without exception) the rapid onset of paralysis and tumors, where birds go from seeming healthy to dying within a two week span (sometimes even faster). My avian vet here also has experienced this with many of her patients. The visceral form, at least in my region, seems to hit hard and fast in many cases, regionally. That said, when I had an ocular Marek's patient, it was a slow decline from being immune-suppressed, over many many months, where she was just very pone to secondary ailments.

I'm extremely glad that you are able to give better advice to those in the UK than I can, that experience Marek's, as indeed it may well be quite a different strain that you experience over there!

 

[Lutman_Chick]

This is not my general experience with Marek's which may be down to it being a milder strain. Yes I get some that follow this route but I also get some that have paralysis for a few days and suddenly come right and can go months or even over a year without any apparent health issues and I get some that take months to make a limited or occasionally full recovery and a few that take several months of fighting it before it overwhelms them.

I agree with @orrpeople that vitamin supplementation to support the immune system is very helpful and I do wonder if at least some of the many threads here on the forum where vitamin deficiency is suggested or diagnosed are in fact Marek's. I also believe that botulism is much, much less common than Marek's but people want to believe anything rather than that they have Marek's.

@Lutman_Chick

Is it lice or mites that you are having problems with? Lice live and breed on the chicken and will thrive when the bird is not feeling well or dust bathing opportunities are limited due to environmental conditions wet or frozen conditions. So Marek's may be causing birds to feel under the weather and not dust bath properly and lice are taking advantage of that, rather than lice triggering an outbreak. Whereas, mites live and breed in the coop and crawl onto the chickens to feed at night and there is not a lot that the chickens can do about that and it is more down to climatic conditions once they start breeding, but the constant loss of blood due to mites could cause stress and trigger an outbreak.

Marek's will make birds more prone to a range of other illnesses as well like coccidiosis, respiratory illnesses and even worms, because it compromises the immune system.
I've also had some die suddenly without any apparent symptoms due to visceral tumours.

I think once you have the disease diagnosed and learn a bit more about it you can then look back and recognise symptoms in birds that were sick or died before the diagnosed bird or your knowledge of the disease.
I now do my own necropsies on birds that die to add to my knowledge and understanding of it.

Apologise, I didn't realise i had replies, It's definitely lice, that i am finally getting on top of having had to resort to using Ivermectin.
We had a crappy winter and late snow so their chances to dust were limited but i never thought of the Marek's allowing the lice in, now i'm getting on top of the lice, their feather are growing back and they are all looking a lot healthier.

I don't know if i confirmed, but got a call from the vet.. 100% Mareks

Oh well, onwards and upwards..

Thanks everyone for your help and support. xx

 

[rebrascora]

Pleased to hear you got on top of the lice but sorry to hear Marek's has been confirmed.... it can be heart breaking at times when you a bird but that happens in poultry keeping anyway and hopefully the strain you have is mild like mine and doesn't cause too many casualties.