Autosexing Olive Eggers

[ZurcherFarms]

I'm new to genetics, can anyone tell me if you can get autosexing chicks from Silver Crested Cream Legbars and Cuckoo Marans?

I know if you put a black rooster with the Cuckoo's, they'll be autosexing, and Cream Legbars are autosexing by themselves, or you can put Bielefelders and CLs together for autosexing, but I haven't been able to find anything on a CCL and CM cross.

Thanks!

 

[The Moonshiner]

There's some confusion going on.
When you all are talking about crossing to a barred hen that is producing sex links.
Autosexing is what CCL are.
Sex links are a one time cross. Autosexing is when they bred true for sexing at birth generation after generation.
Marans X CCL will not make auto sexing. Or at least not without selective breeding for a few generations first.
CCLs are auto sexing because of the sex link barring and the wild type (chipmunk) pattern.
You would have better luck crossing a welsummer rooster over CCL hens. That cross will be sex linked.
You can then use a male back to a CCL hen and half of the pullets will be barred and half of the cockerels will have two copies of barring. Breed those chicks together and you will have auto sexing OEs.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

The Legbars are barred. If you cross one with another bird you must use a Legbar hen and other bird is the cock. This way she passes the barring only to sons. If a Legbar cock then both sex offspring receive barring.

This wont produce auto sexing but will produce sex links. The one time cross to sex birds at hatch. In this case it's via the males have spots on head. Barnvelder or Copper Marans over CCL will produce olive egger sex links.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Oh that's good. Great way to think out a breeding plan to actually make auto sexing. I don't think your drinking much of your product @moonshiner to be that sharp all the time.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi, welcome to BYC!

CCL will not be auto sexing when bred to another breed. And if the line hasn't been selected for good auto sexing traits those can diminish over time as well.

Yes, and solid (and preferably dark) colored rooster bred to a barred or cuckoo hen will produce the sex linked trait. The FEMALE must be the barred parent to get this trait.

The CCL and CM cross will NOT IMO give you auto sexing offspring. You need a barred mum and a solid dad. Say CM hen and Ameraucana pop for example to get OE.

 

[ZurcherFarms]

This is all great information! Thanks so much!

 

[GaryDean26]

I'm new to genetics, can anyone tell me if you can get autosexing chicks from Silver Crested Cream Legbars and Cuckoo Marans?

I know if you put a black rooster with the Cuckoo's, they'll be autosexing, and Cream Legbars are autosexing by themselves, or you can put Bielefelders and CLs together for autosexing, but I haven't been able to find anything on a CCL and CM cross.

Thanks!

I have made a similar cross with Black Copper Marans and Cream Legbars rather than Cuckoo Marans and Cream Legbars. Below in the mother (BCM), father (CLB) and offspring (Cuckoo Cross Breed).

1) First question: What is the make up of your silver crested Cream Legar? The reason I ask is this is an English Breed and the Poultry Club of Great Britain has a standard for the Silver Legbar and they have a Standard for the Cream or Crested Legbar and genetically they are different. There however is NOT a standard for a Silver Crested Cream Legbar so I am not sure what its genetic make up would be (which could play into your question on genetics).

2) I read an article on the Opal Legbar Project in this quarter's Newsletter from the Cream Legbar club. The Article started by clarifying terms that would used in the project. It had a really good explanation of what Auto-sexing is and how it is different from a Sex-link and why that is important when working on projects that involve a cross of breeds. So with this great explanation so fresh I am eager to clarify what these are since they matter in making crosses. A sex-link if a cross of two breeds that can be color sexed as day old chicks. You how ever can not breed sex-links together to get more sex links. The only way to get more sex links is to again cross the two breeds to make the cross a new. Auto-sexing birds can be breed together and have offspring that can be color sexed as day old chicks. (Note: the Opal Legbar project had to keep very careful records of all their birds to they would know what they could breed together to more the project forward and what would ruin the project by making the wrong crosses. So Crossing a Black colored cockerel to Cuckoo hens will not make an autosexing bird but rather a sex-link.

The problem with cuckoo colored birds and black roosters in that they both are build on the extended Black e-loci primary color pattern. The sex-linked barring does not show enough distinction between the two genders on the black chicks down. The sex-link works because only the males get the sex linked barring. The females don't get the barring at all so you have males with white spots on the head and females with no spot. With the Cuckoo Marans cross Cream Legbar all the chicks will get the black chick color from the Cuckoo Marans side and all the chicks will be barred. Both males and females will have the white headspot so they will NOT be autosexing. Trying to sex them will be the same as trying to sex pure cuckoo marans. You could guess and if you do a good job get 80-85% correct but you would not be 100% correct and to qualify as autosexing you have to be able to get 100% accuracy with the color sexing.

When you move from the black chick down to the chipmunk pattern down things change. The sex linked barring is on W chromosome but not the X chromosome. Males have two W chromosomes and females and one W chromosome and one X chromosome. So the Males will carry two sex-linked barring genes and the females will only carry one (That is assuming the males are pure bred and not a sex-link. The sex-link only carry a barring gene from the W chromosome they receive from the Cuckoo mother but not from the W chromosome they get from the back cockerel). While the double diluting of the barring gene does not have any effect on black pigments in the chick down it does have an effect on the red pigments in the chick down that make up the brown colors of the chipmunk patterns. So you have male in autosexing breeds being diluted twice as much as the females in the breed. The distinction is clear. The males end up a lighter color than the females and have diluted stripes. The females with have distinct stripes and darker down color. The distinction is 100%. I have hatched 100's of Legbars and never got a single one sexed incorrectly.

Note: The Legbar x Bielefelders works because they both have the chipmonk pattern down at hatch.

Marans and Legbars do make a nice olive egg though. Here are some egg from the barred legbar x marans in the photo above with a reference marans and reference legbar egg for comparison.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

There's some confusion going on.
When you all are talking about crossing to a barred hen that is producing sex links.
Autosexing is what CCL are.
Sex links are a one time cross. Autosexing is when they bred true for sexing at birth generation after generation.
Marans X CCL will not make auto sexing. Or at least not without selective breeding for a few generations first.
CCLs are auto sexing because of the sex link barring and the wild type (chipmunk) pattern.
You would have better luck crossing a welsummer rooster over CCL hens. That cross will be sex linked.
You can then use a male back to a CCL hen and half of the pullets will be barred and half of the cockerels will have two copies of barring. Breed those chicks together and you will have auto sexing OEs.

Nice clarification!

I was only considering the chipmunk pattern of auto sexing on CCL... and glad to have the difference SET in my mind between auto sexing and sex linked. Which I knew the difference but hadn't considered it too much in speaking terms. And I do like to use the correct term because it makes a HUGE difference in the eventual reality, as you point out.

I do not like to share misinformation... so thank you for being a part of my learning adventure.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I have made a similar cross with Black Copper Marans and Cream Legbars rather than Cuckoo Marans and Cream Legbars. Below in the mother (BCM), father (CLB) and offspring (Cuckoo Cross Breed).

View attachment 1233075

1) First question: What is the make up of your silver crested Cream Legar? The reason I ask is this is an English Breed and the Poultry Club of Great Britain has a standard for the Silver Legbar and they have a Standard for the Cream or Crested Legbar and genetically they are different. There however is NOT a standard for a Silver Crested Cream Legbar so I am not sure what its genetic make up would be (which could play into your question on genetics).

2) I read an article on the Opal Legbar Project in this quarter's Newsletter from the Cream Legbar club. The Article started by clarifying terms that would used in the project. It had a really good explanation of what Auto-sexing is and how it is different from a Sex-link and why that is important when working on projects that involve a cross of breeds. So with this great explanation so fresh I am eager to clarify what these are since they matter in making crosses. A sex-link if a cross of two breeds that can be color sexed as day old chicks. You how ever can not breed sex-links together to get more sex links. The only way to get more sex links is to again cross the two breeds to make the cross a new. Auto-sexing birds can be breed together and have offspring that can be color sexed as day old chicks. (Note: the Opal Legbar project had to keep very careful records of all their birds to they would know what they could breed together to more the project forward and what would ruin the project by making the wrong crosses. So Crossing a Black colored cockerel to Cuckoo hens will not make an autosexing bird but rather a sex-link.

The problem with cuckoo colored birds and black roosters in that they both are build on the extended Black e-loci primary color pattern. The sex-linked barring does not show enough distinction between the two genders on the black chicks down. The sex-link works because only the males get the sex linked barring. The females don't get the barring at all so you have males with white spots on the head and females with no spot. With the Cuckoo Marans cross Cream Legbar all the chicks will get the black chick color from the Cuckoo Marans side and all the chicks will be barred. Both males and females will have the white headspot so they will NOT be autosexing. Trying to sex them will be the same as trying to sex pure cuckoo marans. You could guess and if you do a good job get 80-85% correct but you would not be 100% correct and to qualify as autosexing you have to be able to get 100% accuracy with the color sexing.

When you move from the black chick down to the chipmunk pattern down things change. The sex linked barring is on W chromosome but not the X chromosome. Males have two W chromosomes and females and one W chromosome and one X chromosome. So the Males will carry two sex-linked barring genes and the females will only carry one (That is assuming the males are pure bred and not a sex-link. The sex-link only carry a barring gene from the W chromosome they receive from the Cuckoo mother but not from the W chromosome they get from the back cockerel). While the double diluting of the barring gene does not have any effect on black pigments in the chick down it does have an effect on the red pigments in the chick down that make up the brown colors of the chipmunk patterns. So you have male in autosexing breeds being diluted twice as much as the females in the breed. The distinction is clear. The males end up a lighter color than the females and have diluted stripes. The females with have distinct stripes and darker down color. The distinction is 100%. I have hatched 100's of Legbars and never got a single one sexed incorrectly.

Note: The Legbar x Bielefelders works because they both have the chipmonk pattern down at hatch.

Marans and Legbars do make a nice olive egg though. Here are some egg from the barred legbar x marans in the photo above with a reference marans and reference legbar egg for comparison.

View attachment 1233074

I caught that "silver crested" too.
Gold legbars are the same as cream but without the cream gene. Silver is silver ducking instead of gold duckwing.
Idk if the OPs birds are some sort of project or what. True solve legbars lay cream or white colored eggs so I have to assume they are using creme or some cream cross if they're working on olive eggers.
Btw you can make auto sexing on silver duckwing also.its not only the red/gold that gets diluted. On silver duckwing it dilutes the stripes like on the golds so females have distinct stripes and the males have faded stripes and not the overall contrasts as the females.

 

[GaryDean26]

I caught that "silver crested" too.
Gold legbars are the same as cream but without the cream gene. Silver is silver ducking instead of gold duckwing.
Idk if the OPs birds are some sort of project or what. True solve legbars lay cream or white colored eggs so I have to assume they are using creme or some cream cross if they're working on olive eggers.
Btw you can make auto sexing on silver duckwing also.its not only the red/gold that gets diluted. On silver duckwing it dilutes the stripes like on the golds so females have distinct stripes and the males have faded stripes and not the overall contrasts as the females.

Yes, I if the Silver Crested Cream Legbars is a pure bred silver based birds with the cream diluter and cresting there isn't a problem with the auto-sexing, but if is is some type of cross of a pure Crested Cream Legbars and a none barred silver based breed then the cockerels from that cross would not be able to create autosexing because they would only have the single factor barring.

.... I only had three hatch (2 male, 1 female), so I was trying to see what else I could do with them....

You could put one male in with the female and hatch about 20 chickens then rotate males and hatch another 20 chicks. Then you could pick the best two females from the first 20 chicks to breed back to the first male the best two chicks from the second 20 chicks to breed back to the 2nd male and the best cockerel from all 40 chicks to breed back to the female. Then you would have thee breeding lines started.