Avian Bird Flu - Preventatives?

[addctd2plnts]

Do you know if it has even been tested against Avian Influenza?

As I mentioned above, I realize that the viruses it has shown effective against are NOT AI but I'm betting it has never been tested (in chickens specifically). That could mean it COULD be effective and just hasn't been tested. Or maybe it's not at all, such as with Zika (in mice).

I'm just saying...aren't 2.75 million birds (and counting) worth giving it a try?



Source - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7290143/

I agree, your thought process is very valid medically, and there are a number of medical articles that point to its possible use in humans infected with avian influenza. It looks like because it has jumped to humans in isolated cases, they are being forced into killing all exposed birds due to the mortality rate in humans. Depending on the article, the humans that got it had 35%-80% mortality. Remember that this is worldwide so many of the treating countries were not even close to real medical standards. So, though the Dept of Ag is not making big deal about the potential jump to humans, it looks like the real reason they are killing the birds, though they want to stop the spread in birds, is to prevent the virus from mutating to one that can easily be spread to humans, or heaven forbid, between humans. There are some articles says it has jumped to pigs in some cases. I seem to remember when it does this, it's much more likely to then be able to mutate and jump to humans. Of course to protect the food chain and mass starvation in many countries they want to prevent this jump too.

This article discusses the wide variety of viruses Ivermectin has been effective against. The first part of Table 1 shows all the viruses: https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/cells/cells-09-02100/article_deploy/cells-09-02100-v2.pdf

 

[TJAnonymous]

You have a point. I often have the notion myself of just throwing a med at a problem just to see what would happen with my one chicken, my very own clinical trial if you will. I did this a couple years ago when I thought some pullets had Marek's and I wanted to see if the anti-viral herpes med acyclovir would work against it.

As for whether millions of birds are "worth it", probably not in our cynical economic system where it's cheaper and easier to simply kill all infected and suspected infected birds and start all over. The industry sets the demand and the pharmaceutical industry then decides if it's cost/profit effective enough to start doing drug trials. Bird flu has been around since 1997 when it was discovered in both birds and humans. Seems we'd have a med for it by now if any of the powers-that-be cared to find it.

I just got off the phone with someone who works in poultry research. He said that, to his knowledge, it has NOT been tested. He said that it would require a Level 3 biolab to do this kind of testing with AI. There is a lab in Georgia which is doing some testing in regards to AI but he isn't sure if they are looking at Ivermectin as a preventative or treatment. He said that commercial houses would absolutely be interested in finding something as a preventative or treatment because of the financial hit they are taking when entire farms are culled. He said there is a vaccine for AI but the problem with vaccines and viruses is problems with efficacy due to viral mutation. This is why therapeutics are often better than vaccines because they can target specific strains. He did say that delivery could be problematic since a commercial farm could have 3M or more birds. How do you ensure they all get the right dosage without going bird by bird?

You could tell he was intrigued by the idea, though, so he is going to bring it up at meeting on the 25th and see if anyone is doing this kind of research or even interested in it.

 

[TJAnonymous]

I agree, your thought process is very valid medically, and there are a number of medical articles that point to its possible use in humans infected with avian influenza. It looks like because it has jumped to humans in isolated cases, they are being forced into killing all exposed birds due to the mortality rate in humans. Depending on the article, the humans that got it had 35%-80% mortality. Remember that this is worldwide so many of the treating countries were not even close to real medical standards. So, though the Dept of Ag is not making big deal about the potential jump to humans, it looks like the real reason they are killing the birds, though they want to stop the spread in birds, is to prevent the virus from mutating to one that can easily be spread to humans, or heaven forbid, between humans. There are some articles says it has jumped to pigs in some cases. I seem to remember when it does this, it's much more likely to then be able to mutate and jump to humans. Of course to protect the food chain and mass starvation in many countries they want to prevent this jump too.

This article discusses the wide variety of viruses Ivermectin has been effective against. The first part of Table 1 shows all the viruses: https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/cells/cells-09-02100/article_deploy/cells-09-02100-v2.pdf

My contact said that AI has a 95% mortality rate in birds. Once they get it, they are almost certainly done for....

All the more reason why the industry would support a treatment if it was cost effective.

 

[TJAnonymous]

To clarify, the flu drugs oseltamivir (Tamiflu), peramivir (Rapivab), or zanamivir (Relenza) can be used to treat avian flu in humans.

Are any of those as cheap as Ivermectin? My daughter came down with Type A Influenza this past week. Instead of prescribing Tamiflu, they prescribed a "new" medication called Xofluza. Guess how much it costs? $100!

My point is that if the treatment is more expensive than the cost to cull the birds, then it's not really a viable option. Ivermectin is cheap. But the question is if it is effective AND how could it be delivered to the birds....?

 

[azygous]

I keep a prescription of Tamiflu on hand just in case I get whatever flavor flu is going around. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a chicken in my flock that might have avian flu.

However, the problem with that plan is three-fold. First, I would need to have a way of verifying they have avian flu. Then I would need to treat soon after onset of symptoms for it to have any chance of curing my chicken. Lastly, the process of obtaining enough Tamiflu to treat a flock of chickens might take longer to accomplish than the narrow window of efficacy allows. This latter is why I keep a prescription on hand for myself. No way would I be able to convince my doc to write a prescription for each chicken in my flock.

Covered runs are the best prevention for these avian flu viruses, and that's cost effective since a covered run is also the best preventative against losing your flock to predators.

 

[TJAnonymous]

I keep a prescription of Tamiflu on hand just in case I get whatever flavor flu is going around. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a chicken in my flock that might have avian flu.

However, the problem with that plan is three-fold. First, I would need to have a way of verifying they have avian flu. Then I would need to treat soon after onset of symptoms for it to have any chance of curing my chicken. Lastly, the process of obtaining enough Tamiflu to treat a flock of chickens might take longer to accomplish than the narrow window of efficacy allows. This latter is why I keep a prescription on hand for myself. No way would I be able to convince my doc to write a prescription for each chicken in my flock.

Covered runs are the best prevention for these avian flu viruses, and that's cost effective since a covered run is also the best preventative against losing your flock to predators.

Yes, you are absolutely right... When I started this thread, I was wondering whether Pour-on Ivermectin or something else could be used as a preventative or a therapeutic treatment. After talking with people on this thread and at the University, my goal has shifted to finding out if anyone is looking at this as a potential treatment for against future outbreaks.

Here's the rub with the current situation. According to my contact, if any birds test positive, the government will automatically cull every last bird on your farm. There will be no attempt at any kind of treatment...

Keeping any illness secret is probably inconvenient and unethical. First of all, a flock owner probably wouldn't know for sure if their birds have it without testing.... And, even if you did know, if the experiment fails you'll still lose your birds to a terrible death AND potentially propagate the virus through wild birds that could pick it up.

So sadly, the only reasonable preventative is like locking down the flock... But hopefully someone will be willing to look at this option in a controlled lab and determine whether it could really work as a treatment. That research will take years because FDA and USDA need to ensure no treatment residue remains in animals meant for consumption. Lots of implications here...

 

[azygous]

This news just came in. https://www.wsj.com/articles/iverme...izations-in-largest-trial-to-date-11647601200

 

[TJAnonymous]

This news just came in. https://www.wsj.com/articles/iverme...izations-in-largest-trial-to-date-11647601200

I know this topic is very sensitive and political... And not totally relevant to Avian Influenza... So I won't delve into that subject further except to say I have been involved in conversations starting in January 2020 from a national security level and don't believe what comes out in media sources. Lots of information being twisted, buried, and censored for financial and political gain. I'm not here to convince anyone or change their beliefs about Covid. Believe whatever you want to believe...

My purpose with this thread was to discuss antiviral efficacy of Ivermectin or other potential therapeutics as a treatment or preventative for AI. There are many documented and peer-reviewed cases which support antiviral efficacy of Ivermectin around a wide range of viruses. Those studies indicate that this drug could be promising in treatment of chickens against AI based upon its efficacy in treatment of humans with Avian Influenza.

 

[TJAnonymous]

Just saw that a big farm in Iowa has to cull over 5 million birds.

I wonder if McMurray's is affected?

 

[DramaBrahmaMama]

I was reading one article that said to make sure that if you have a run, it has a solid covering, and the fence surrounding your run was covered to prevent wild birds from entering to get to the feed. So... poultry netting it is! Pain in the ars, but totally worth it to protect your flock. We have all invested way too much time, energy and love into these birds to have them simply wiped out. It comes down to this, we do what we can... ALL that we can, and we pray it works. Right now, my county in Iowa is surrounded by it. The hatchery where I got my chicks is surrounded also. And, unfortunately, my DIL's family co-ops with the place that just went positive 2 days ago. They also have a large commercial turkey farm in Buena Vista County. They must test daily and maintain strict biosecurity. This is a nightmare... but, it happens every few years. My main concern is protecting my flock and making sure they are all healthy and safeguarded. I'm trying not to consider how these things will affect an already stressed food chain and inflation. It will drive me crazy. The wild birds that are so accustomed to me feeding them are quite angry with me right now. But unfortunately, they are all public enemy #1 till this is over....