Ayam Cemani

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

The only Breed that calls chickens a different breed based on color faults are Ameraucanas. Cemani Farm probably has no idea what you are talking about.

They would be Cemani but would not match SOP. SG Dorkings with color faults are still SG Dorkings, as an example.

EXACTLY!

That's been the point all along. Every breed will hatch culls no matter how perfect the breeding stock. With only a small handful of people here with these, it's insane to expect the same perfection within the breed as the country of origins stock. bird A to bird A always hatches bird A... no matter if it's perfect or not, it's still bird A just with flaws..... yall have never hatched birds from your personal flocks that weren't perfect???

 

[boykin2010]

I was just asking a hypothetical question as I was under the impression from another member that anything besides black cannot be called Cemani.

Chicks with imperfections are bound to happen, and I was just asking if those chicks without the proper coloring in Cemani Farm's opinion, could be called Cemani.

 

[Oldhound]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the word for Black in that culture is Cemani. So if it is not solid black ( cemani) it is not Ayam Cemani. It may just be a matter of wording and perception, from an Indonesian point of view. .

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

That's right old hound. Native perception . The breed is still what it is though

 

[debs_flock]

yall have never hatched birds from your personal flocks that weren't perfect???

Nope, the 1,000 chicks I hatched last year were all BIS quality,

weren't yours?

 

[Randy2010]

Well I hatched out 8 chicks and two had a very small patch on their stomach and even a smaller patch on their throat and I think they are going to loose most of it and then I hope the rest after their first molt. Everything else on them is good, black skin, tongue and so on. But with there being just a few breeders in the US with these birds I'm not going to cull them if they have a white feather or two. I think that would be crazy with the gene pool being so small and there not being that many breeders with them. Its not like we have a ton of them here to choose from.

 

[debs_flock]

With such a small gene pool, you just need to set up a line breeding system.

http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Line_Breeding

I'd be happy to help you with developing a line, send me a couple of chicks!

 

[Randy2010]

With such a small gene pool, you just need to set up a line breeding system.

http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Line_Breeding

I'd be happy to help you with developing a line, send me a couple of chicks!

Sure I will send some right over. LOL

Yes I plan on trying to do the spiral breeding method, but will have to wait and see what I have when they get old enough to sex and go from there.

 

[Chambertin]

The call to arms that non black hatches are all Ok and normal is wearing thin.
What I see coming out of Indonesian sources is consistent: this is a true black Fibro Melanistic breed (abb. FM)

Pure and genuine FM (all black) breeds in Asia have a dominant color code that will overtake the other color genetics. Only those flocks that have had long exposure to other breeds intentionally or unmanaged accidental mixing show offspring of a repeatedly light skin or white nature.

A mix of an Orpington and a tru FM breed gives the dominant FM traits to the whole bird. Although not full black the FM gene takes over and greys out everything.
The Silkie (a non true FM breed, lots of outside mixing for cute traits) has the feathered feet and feather type, but loses all the black except for a tiny bit on the beak. The FM is not evenly distributed or dominant.

When the breed loses its true genetics the first thing to show is a loss of pigment from the exposed skin. (the FM genetics are still at play but no longer fully dominant) This could qualify as the parent breed but only if re-introduced into an unaltered flock or true stock to ensure the offspring do not further lose a defining trait.

The next loss of FM traits is expressed with blotching of the feathers and skin. (crossing two FM breeds that show this in chicks means that significant outside influence has taken hold to the point that FM dominance has been lost) At this point the breed is no longer true and should be considered a loss to the original breed. It is now just a farm mix chicken.

The black feathering will come out as in this picture of the pullet, but the skin color does not recover and the inferior genetics will be passed further distancing the new mix from the parent true breed.

Finally the exposed skin is consistently red and all reliable FM traits are long gone.

Even the true FM and Orpington mix shows the red exposed skin, proving that getting FM traits into the exposed skin is the most true genetic indicator and any who show any reddening are exiting the breed due to unnecessary mixing.
Fron this:

To this:

This isnt about one or two feathers this is about stage two non recoverable loss of defining genetic traits. The reliable FM genetics have been lost and that is absolutely breed defining. These are not the "black" breeds that people are used to here and I wish people would listen to the sources who hold these Ayam Cemani in true stock. You just don't have defects in a true black breed unless the stock was mixed or altered.

In the end you can say what you want about accepting the occasional flaw but a chicken that can not pass on the specific traits that make it breed unique then that bird doesn't qualify as part of that breed. It can be called a mutt or relative, maybe even a desirable new breed.

Would a chicken that looks like a Black Copper Maran but lays a white egg be considered a true member of the breed?
I think not because that is a defining trait of the breed.

I will end my contribution with the facts that these experiments were run in China with a non Ayam Cemani, but other true FM breeds: 雪峰乌骨黑羽系, 峰乌骨黑羽系, 绿壳蛋鸡 sourced from stock that showed full FM traits.
Luckily one breeder had a website, but most of our stock was sourced locally from old undisturbed family flocks http://www.hfhwgj.com/

So there is room for debate and anyone who can prove me wrong about the breed can do so.
HOWEVER the burden of proof is on the US breeders who wish to include their flock into the standards that do NOT allow white or any other non black skin and feather mixing into the classification of Ayam Cemani The people who have visited or found information from Indonesia have stated again and again if its not black its not Ayam Cemani.
I would assume someone trying to sell a unique bird for a large sum of money can provide sufficient documentation of source country standards for a bird. If they cant than the price seems a little out of balance
(except for auctions where the buyer sets the price not the seller, its on them to educate themselves and ask questions)

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's business or stop on toes, but put to bed this myth that we can re-create a breed here in the US just because the APA or some other agency hasn't registered Ayam Cemani in the books yet..
I cant very well sell Wisconsin Cheddar if its blue and made in Japan even if I have the trademark for it over in Japan now can I?
I guess I could if no one from Wisconsin ever sees it...

Those birds are beautiful and probably have an awesome exotic name, but everything I see says its not the one we want to give them.
Please prove me wrong with a source from where the breed originates.

I hope this ends some of the namecalling and pointless debate.



EDIT: Good luck with the breeding, with careful selection you should be able to solidify the gene pool to produce consistent FM black if the blotching hasn't reached skin deep and the wattles or other exposed skin stay black or at least very deep in color.

I truly wish those of you with the new hatches the best of luck with this breed and I hope you enjoy learning more about FM and its genetics.
I'm also learning and have a long way to go before I'm an expert, but cant deny the results I got back in China.
Some older FM birds were recovered using this method and there are a few places dedicated to it that have lots to offer and more experience with the weakened FM lines.
www.backyardchickens.com/t/525146/the-blackest-ones-on-exploring-the-significance-of-cemani-mutations/170

 

[Chickengirl1304]

Hi anyone know how old these chickens are when they start to lay?