Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Outlier]

Thanks for the reminder about the links, but I'm not asking about Germany. I'm asking about North American birds. Who here has developed a line that produces siblings that will produce properly laced male and female birds both meeting the SOP. I want of learn how they did if, what lines, what did they look for. How do you do that without selecting for roos or females. I would love to see birds from someone on the forum who has birds with the genetics to do this. If the Germans can do it, do we know for sure we even have that combination of genes in our lines anymore. Do we know for sure two pens were nog used. Maybe the ability was bred out selecting for something else. I love simple punnet squares but beyond that I'm visual. I want to see what is here.

x2

 

[fowlman01]

I am very pleased you have joined in the discussion Bjiorn. You have always been very helpful on this thread and with welsummers. Your insight with these breeds is very helpful to those of us just starting out in breeding.

Walt - I appreciate your insight as well. Good point on the standard not stating the amount of lacing. I have some 40 pages to read in my SOP.

I see some very passionate people here, which can be good for the breed. It can also cause intense discussions. We will all have different trials in working with them. Some great and some mistakes. (Goodness know I have made mistakes with my welsummers). It is how we learn.

With the loss of 2 major breeders now this breed cannot afford to lose more people willing to work with them. We all want what is best for the barnevelder.

I realized early on that people would get the Standard...go to their breed, read everything several times, but never read the first 40 pages which is where the SOP is explained. When people read those 40 pages, they suddenly understand that breeding to the SOP is not to just create a show bird. If you breed to the SOP you will have a bird that fulfills the purpose of the breed....eggs, meat or both. Many people have the mistaken idea that breeding to the Standard only creates pretty birds... not true at all!!
If you watch a judge at work you will see that he/she is feeling the bird all over as they look at each part. A pretty bag of feathers is not going to win with a good judge.



The first 40 pages has diagrams that show the differences in body forms between good and poor quality bodies.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Whoa, hold on now you are changing what I said, I said if I wanted a true Silkie or Serama I would not buy from APA winner. I did not say on ALL APA winners! The Silkies in America right now while cute, could NEVER survive in their original environment. Since people are breeding to the extent of the APA standard, not to the original intent of the bird. Seramas are not even real Seramas (but that is a whole other can of worms) That is all that I was saying.

I know APA judges work their bottoms off! It is very hard to have to know everything about all breeds. However, sometimes the SOP while it has good intentions, ends up doing the reverse. Again, I believe this is in all types of animals, not picking on the APA directly. Just a side effect.

Also, yes, I was heated because not that long ago it appeared that all of you respected and valued each others opinions, then all the sudden an attack just because of a difference of opinion. Anyone on the forum knows, I am not one that claims to keep things calm, LOL!!!!

Silkies are an ornamental breed in the APA/ABA. They are bred to ornamental Standards, not to perform a function or even to run loose in the rain.

Can you explain how the APA Standard has good intentions, but does the reverse? Just curious.

Walt

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
Thanks for the feedback. I'm certainly not looking to get a Wyandotte look in the lacing. I posted the pic as an example of something that I was given years ago - I think by Ehard (who is German) - as an example of what our Standard says the males breast should look like. I am curious though, why is it that you would not want to use a male like this for breeding?

Btw, I saw the comb too and didn't like it either.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote: Royce,

"If someone wants to breed their bird to another Standard. Fine. They have the freedom to do that. Folks can breed their birds any way or anyhow they want to"

I already said I will breed to the Dutch standard. I didn't say mine are the best. I didn't say anything about your birds quality or ability to meet the APA SOP either. Yes, in my humble opinion I will try to breed to the Dutch standard. What is your problem...with that?

Trisha

There is NO problem whatsoever with you trying to breed to the Dutch standard. My problem is when you start trying to change our Standard to conform to your Dutch Standard. Some on here believe the black chested males are a 'better looking" bird. As I said above, that's personal preference but is NOT the Standard. And I have no doubt that this was all looked at when the Standard was being determined. As Walt and I both said earlier, this is NO mistake. I have no doubt that Bjorn can lay out some very reasonable arguments as to why he believes the current SOP is a mistake. The fact remains it's been there for 20 years and obviously at least the majority of others did not. I know two of the breeders were German. And I've already written that I've been told that Horst seemingly had the greatest influence. So while there may have been disagreement at the time, I doubt anybody thinks it was a mistake.

And evidently, there are a few other countries that don't seem to think it is either.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
I'm getting there. The male I have now is a lot better than the one I had 3 years ago. The RC male I have now is the son of that cockbird. And I mentioned several pages back that Erhard has Bantam Barnies that have laced males and he didn't double mate.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

I was just reading some stuff on the origins of the Barnevelder. Came across an interesting statement.

What's interesting is that if you go back and read some of the literature on creation of the Barnevelder, there isn't even agreement on that or what they should have looked like. In fact, there was a "split" in the Barnevelder "club" over the lacing issue and a new club was started by those who thought the Barnevelder should REMAIN all Black! Hmmm, I wonder how many folks on here now are in favor of that????

God Bless,

 

[Happy Chooks]

Royce - I'd like to see a picture of Erhards bantam barnevelder's laced chest. How thick is the lacing? I've seen some pictures of bantams and they looked similar to the LF barnevelders. I have not seen a bantam picture with a laced chest.

I think the discussion here is not laced or not laced. But to what degree? My birds are laced in the chest, but you have to really look to see it. As was said earlier, they "appear" solid black until you part the feathers.

 

[RachaelS]

Quote: That is my point exactly. Breeding to the APA/ABA standard made the Silkie worthless in it's original environment. Don't get me wrong, we need standards, but they are a living breathing standard that can change, have changed and will change in the future. They are not set in stone. Walt, if you were at a show and, there were 2 Barnie with the exact same body however one had perfect lacing and one with not so perfect lacing, which would you put in 1st place? The perfect laced one of course. What if that perfect laced one, laid 1 egg a week and the eggs were very light in color, but the other one laid almost daily and very dark colored eggs. Now which one should be used for a breeding pool? I understand a judge can not take ALL of that into consideration, the breeder should, however, a lot of breeders will used the perfectly laced bird over the other one, even though you are losing out on two VERY important traits of the Barnie. That is what I mean about good intentions.

A while back I was on the Cream Legbar thread and they are trying to get it added, the interesting thing is while writing the description, the American birds are clearly not what the English birds are, so there is much debate as to just write the standard towards what we have already or write it towards the English standard and then everyone would have to start over from scratch. I am not saying that happened with the Barnies, and while it does not show that the standard is a "mistake" it does show that groups may enter a standard based on what they have available at the time. Nothing wrong with that, kind of hard to set up a standard for a bird that does not exist in the US.

1991 was not that long ago, it would be nice to see pictures of the original Show and figure out why lacing was added to our standard. Has anyone requested that from Sam Brush? I know he is very busy and may not have

 

[RachaelS]

That's the whole point. The breed as far as America is concerned was established in 1991. The Description of the breed was laid out in clear terms in 1991. The specifications for which judges must judge by are laid out. If you want to "better the breed", then breed to the Standard. What other countries have done or are doing at this time is irrelevant. We HAVE a Standard NOW.


"I will just breed the best birds I can." In your humble opinion no doubt. But by whose Standard? What is "best" and who decides? My goal is to breed the "best" Barnies I can as well. But I have a Standard to go by. I have something measurable. I have something qualitative and quantitative by which I can measure my success. I live in the USA and I have an APA SOP to measure my success. And I have judges that have spent YEARS learning how to judge to a score sheet to place birds. And it is that by which I will work toward breeding the "best" birds I can.

God Bless,

Royce,

Okay so one person breeds a nearly Black Breasted Barnie and you are creating your own line of RC Barnies, pretty sure NO ONE ever got mad at you for disregarding the SOP and doing your own thing. As a matter of fact I think everyone was supportive and looking forward to what you came up with.

So for any judges out there, as far as the SOP which one would win at a show?