Be responsible for your dogs !!!(graphic pics)

[Oblio13]

Quote:
No more than passages from the Koran or Talmud would "PROVE" something to you.

Quote:
Sorry.

It's kind of a dead end to assume that everyone affiliates themselves with the same supernatural beings, or with any supernatural beings at all.

 

[moenmitz]

I apologize to the OP...this HAS gotten way off topic. My original intent was only to offer a suggestion as I was truly sorry for their loss. They didnt seem keen on all the dog killing talk, and I thought it might be helpful.

I was under the impression that the "Predators & Pests" forum was designed for pepole to share information that might be beneficial towards protecting their flocks. I thought it was where people came for help, and wanted to learn new, unusual, and possibly better ways of doing so.

But it is not. Clearly no one here has any need for new ideas because the only possible solution for animal control is kill em or cage em.

Being so brazen to suggest a different approach will only invite name calling, mockery and heated debate.

I suggested that just because one might not have a visible means of control, does not mean there is none present. One could debate the merits of different methods for eternity without reaching a consensus-but isnt it more beneficial to open ones mind to the possibility that all methods HAVE some merit? I have not once disagreed that animals should be both protected from harm, and prevented from harming others-that is a no- brainer.

People discern only what they wish to, and my post was misunderstood. I was quoted as saying something I did NOT say, and then ridiculed for the non-existent statement. I respectfully reposted at length in an attempt to clarify, and did not make personal attacks.

And now it is somehow a religious debate, which is just absurd!

Because the vast majority of the population DOES claim a Christian affiliation I wrongly assumed that presenting a scriptural viewpoint might prove thought provoking for some. I had no intention of insulting those of non-Christian faiths and would have thought any who might belong to such, and who mostly DO have a belief in some sort of higher power, would be able to appreciate the principles at least, if not the doctrine.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how what I thought was really nice, respectful group of people who loved chickens has suddenly resorted to behaving like name calling, bloodthirsty know it alls.

I respectfully ask that a moderator close this thread. I am sure the OP has long since gleaned any useful information that was posted here, and further discussion of what people should do with their own animals can only serve to be inflammatory.

I am done here, there is nothing to be gained I see, and only my time and sanity to be lost. I posess little of either as it is, and do not wish to squander what is left. You all have my word, if my dog comes to your home and kills your chickens, I will accept responsibility and make restitution. If you would find it necessary to shoot him, that is your right. If one of your well fenced dogs escapes, through an unlatched gate, a hole dug under the fence or chewed through it, or a power surge that shuts off your electricity, and comes to MY home and kills my chickens-I will give both you and your dog an opportunity to make amends and attempt to alter his behavior before I make the decision to take his life. A life that I, at least, value.

Again, my sincere apologies to the OP...I hope you find a solution that works for YOU.

 

[ninjapoodles]

moenmitz--I don't think you're being unfairly "attacked." You're insinuating that those of us who choose to be responsible neighbors and pet-owners by keeping our dogs confined to our property, or leashed when they're off our property, are just too lazy or uncaring to "train" them. I also don't think it's gone off-topic--just look at the title of the thread.

My dogs ARE well-trained. They have titled in obedience and agility, and have shown in conformation. Three are retired champions, and producers of champions. One is both an AKC and a UKC champion, a group-placer/winner in both registries. One is a working retriever-in-training, a hunting companion. You don't accomplish these things without training.

One of the first things I train into any pup is a solid recall, and I like for all my dogs to have an "instant down" command that they'll obey from a distance.

On the other hand, you choose to refuse to confine a WOLF HYBRID to your own property, because it's "worth the risk" to you. Well, that's fine for you. I wonder (and I'm sure you'll insist that they all think it's just peachy) if your neighbors feel the same way, and choose to assume the same risk. I'm sorry, but I just don't feel that your (and by "your" I mean ANYBODY, not picking on just you) dog's "right" to freedom trumps my family's and my livestock's right to safety and peace.

I'm sure Tim is a wonderful dog. I'm glad that I have dogs who prefer my company to their "freedom," and that I've never had to beat the daylights out of any of them in order to "teach them a lesson."

I think you just hit a nerve when you came to a place in which people have lost livestock to loose dogs, and you take the side of the owner who doesn't "believe" in confining your dog. It just may not be the correct forum for your battle.

(edited for superfluous apostrophe)

 

[Jolyn]

I just saw this and just wanted to say how sorry i am for the loss of your chickens.

I can't even imagine if i came home and found that horrible site. I hope your chickens that survived are doing better.

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

Quote:
I agree with you 100%

 

[Beekissed]

I guess I believe in giving the dogs some freedom as long as they can't go off your property. I have a fence around the entire property, as well as invisible fencing, to insure that my dogs are safe and the neighbors remain friendly. Its true that good fences make for good neighbors, really.

The fence around my property provides safety to dogs and chickens alike. Both dogs and chickens can then enjoy an acre+ of run room without feeling confined. It gives the dogs a chance to be dogs, without the confinement of being in the house, a kennel, on a chain, etc. It gives the chickens a chance to be chickens without ranging into the road or getting too far away from the safety of the dogs and shelter from hawks.

I've freeranged without fencing before and, of course, the chickens would range into the neighbor's yards. I was being irresponsible at that time and not too considerate, I admit. I have since learned my lesson and would not do this again. My chickens did no damage, but not everyone enjoys chicken poop in their yard. The neighbors were nice about it, but it was still presumptious on my part.

I say, if you've got neighbors and your animals are capable of reaching their property, then fence them in!

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:

Exactly. And the idea that being totally unrestricted is the way the "domestic dogs were designed to live," well, I call baloney on that. Domestic dogs were "designed" BY HUMANS. And not that long ago, in the great scheme of things, either.

It also seems that those of us who advocate personal responsibility for our animals are being lumped in with the "shoot first, ask questions later" crowd, too, and that isn't necessarily the case. I could never shoot someone's dog, unless it was to protect a human (and that person better hope it's not up to me, because I'd surely miss).

There are a million degrees between letting your dog roam unrestricted, and having it live "in a cage" or "on a chain." Sheesh. Beekissed, I would imagine that MOST domestic dogs in this country wouldn't know what to do with a whole acre all to themselves! I think you've hit on the perfect "happy medium" between total confinement and total anarchy. Just think how many pet dogs live perfectly happy, fulfilled lives in places like Manhattan.

 

[Beekissed]

I tell you, I have one dog who could survive in the wild just fine...he has more characteristics of a wild dog than he does as a domestic. My other dog would try, but she would not thrive, I'm sure.

I don't think I would shoot a neighbor's dog unless I had exhausted all other avenues. I had to do this very thing once and it doesn't feel good. Took care of the problem but still doesn't feel good.

The dog in question had dug into my rabbit barn, trashed cages that were suspended and killed two of my best rabbits. We told our neighbor and then made sure the dog couldn't dig under the door anymore. He chewed a hole through my garage door big enough to get into my dog, that was being kept in confinement for a day. I bought him a collar and a tie out and took him back to the neighbor and tied him. The next day he was down at my house and following me through the garden.....snapping off each pepper plant as neatly as if it were done with scissors. The neighbor just laughed and said, "Just hit him with a newspaper and he'll never come back." I tried this and the dog growled at me and ripped my thumb open. The police were called after the garage incident and they advised me to shoot him, as there was nothing in our town for taking in dogs that were running loose. So...after putting up with this dog day after day as he was riding my neutered male dog like a pony(my poor dog would just sit with his back against the house all day to try to keep his back end safe), chewing more holes in my garage door, still trying to get to my rabbits, continuing to trash my garden and growling at me each time I tried to make him go home....I finally hauled him out to my mother's place and she dispatched him. The neighbor never even came asking for him. Apparently didn't care either way. Sad, really, because he was a smart(although destructive) little dog.

 

[moenmitz]

I don't think you're being unfairly "attacked." You're insinuating that those of us who choose to be responsible neighbors and pet-owners by keeping our dogs confined to our property, or leashed when they're off our property, are just too lazy or uncaring to "train" them. I also don't think it's gone off-topic--just look at the title of the thread.

Are "fair" attacks welcome on here then? Because I thought it was a DISCUSSION forum.

I insinuated no such thing. Not every dog will respond well enough to training to be trustworthy. Sophie sure wouldn't. Our Huskies could have cared less when push came to shove. Some people dont have time, or the patience to do it, and I dont blame them one bit. I said if you have the means to fence your land, that is great. I dont have a problem with a fence, I would LOVE to have a fence! But it isnt feasible for me...or many others. IF a person chooses to use another method, SUCH AS FIRM OBEDIENCE TRAINING, and has success with it, then they are not being irresponsible...they are making the choice that they deem best for their situation.

I think it is a good thing Lassie's owners shared that viewpoint, or poor Timmy might still be in the well.

So to clear that up, cause I apparently have a tendency to confuse people it would seem...Me think fence good. Me think controlling your dogs- important Me think making sure your dog stays on your property-VERY VERY IMPORTANT AND GOOD. Me think that for somebody to tell everybody else that they are wrong and irresponsible because they dont do it in the way YOU think is best?- NOT very nice.

It is not correct to assume that anyone who does not choose YOUR method of controlling your dog is "irresponsible" Which you might note, is what YOU just insinuated I was.

YOU, and others here, have defined responsible...but who among us should have the right to define what is or isn't "responsible"? It is an opinion, nothing more-opinions are fine to share, but not kind to force upon others as law.

As for my neighbors- no, I do not advertise Tim's parentage for the simple fact that many people have very strong prejudices against wolf hybrids-some of them well justified I admit. I was adamantly opposed to them myself and protested fiercely against them...until I was educated by owners and discovered that I had based my opinion on what I had been told...not what I knew. When I shut up long enough to listen to what OTHERS had to say, I found out I DIDN'T know as much as I thought I did. I was reminded that there are exceptions to every rule. But considering on the one instance when Tim was scared off by the storm my neighbors hauled them into their living room and told us later they had considered keeping him forever....I am thinking they would be ok with it.

I mean seriously...does he really look like a threat to public safety? Other than air quality that is...he does have a certain powerful aroma about him....

For thousands of years man and dog have worked with eachother and loved eachother. Countless times dogs have proved their loyalty and trustworthiness to their masters-saving their lives, the lives of their children. They are intelligent, loving, dedicated creatures- but because they lack the power of speech humans assume that they are not capable of understanding. Why is it that the one friend we have who loves us unconditionally, who never gets offended or holds a grudge...is the one we cant trust? To quote the bible once again, because I, and many others here no doubt, feel it is the last word in wisdom...(and with no intent to offend those who could care less what it says)

"No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." JOHN 15:13 ..

A lot of people WOULD give their life to save a friend. A lot of dogs HAVE.


Can't ANYONE simply see my only point here is that there ARE no hard and fast rules when it comes to animals, ANY animals? (Excepting you Sundown....Very sweet of you to lend your support, even though approval was never what I was after...just wanted people to play NICE. Thanks...

) Making judgements and calling names against anyone who tries to provide one with information they may not have had knowledge of before is just so wrong. I think we can all learn something from eachother. We dont have to agree with it...but at least if you cant find ANY value in someone's opinion, you do not need to attack that person. Feel free to disagree, to present YOUR opinion....but dont tell me I have no right to mine.


Guess I wasn't done after all. Whoops.


You do make a valid point that I missed though- it really IS within the thread topic....

 

[ninjapoodles]

moenmitz, I never attacked you at all. I disagreed with you. I never called you names, insulted you, or even, Heaven forbid, said, "YOU ARE WRONG!" I just disagree with free-roaming dogs. That's it. I'm sorry you're taking it so personally, but some things you posted I just absolutely do not agree with, and simply said so. You don't agree with me, and have said so. And...so? No hard feelings on my part, certainly.

As far as "who decides" what is responsible behavior...well, the law, for one. I can guarantee you that if one of us lets our dog run loose, and--let's imagine that the dog is perfectly behaved, and would never hurt any person or animal, but it gets hit by a car, causing an accident in which people are injured and property is damaged, the legal system is not going to say, "Well, we would normally hold the dog-owner responsible, but in this case, the dog-owner just has a different idea of the definition of responsibility."

I don't believe (and I know you do, and that's OK--I am not attacking you) that there's really all that much grey area when you start talking about liability and responsibility. And you admit yourself that your neighbors have no say in whether or not they have a large, unconfined dog (actually wolf hybrid) in their midst. I understand how you think that's OK for you--but is that really fair for them? I kind of doubt they'd think so. I know that I HATE that there are loose dogs who live around me. And I can't even do anything about it until after it's too late.

I guess this issue pushed my buttons because I've heard many of the arguments you're using by my own neighbors who refuse to confine their dogs. One guy even said, "Heck, that's one reason I moved out here, so my dogs could run free!" No consideration AT ALL for the rest of us. Sorry if I stepped on your toes, but in no way did I intend to "attack" you, nor do I hold any sort of hard feelings against you.

(And yes--for us, a good fence is a HUGE priority. If we didn't have one, the dogs would stay inside a lot more, and we would ALWAYS supervise them when they're outdoors. I've lived without fence before. It's more trouble, when you have dogs, but it's do-able. I've never place a puppy or a foster dog to any home without a fenced yard, though. Also, nothing says that your ENTIRE property has to be fenced. Our is, because it was perimeter-fenced in 6' chainlink when we bought it.)