Beating a dead horse *Changed to Breeding Project Talk Update Post 71*

[Ahab]

Quote:
That's exactly how the better poultry farmers (including the backyard flocks that every farm had) handled things years ago. There were no mail-order chickens, no hybrids to speak of: everyone who aspired above the level of subsistence farmer selectively bred not just their chickens, but their sheep and their cattle and their horses and their turnips and their corn. Among animals, chickens were the easiest to work with, however, because of their size and the rapid cycling of generations.

Read the old farm books: the best were pre-WWII, when the emphasis shifted from home-based agriculture to industrial agriculture (My high-school Vocational Agriculture textbooks back in the 1960s were published by Dow Chemical). Practically all the chicken breeds we talk about now came about from breeding programs by family farmers. And family farmers who are interested (and by farmer, I have down-sized the definition considerably to include the typical member of this board) in reviving the chickens' original purpose--to provide a self-sustaining supply of eggs and meat and new chickens--can do it without re-inventing the wheel. HaikuHeritage has it exactly right.

 

[JoAnn_WI_4-H_Mom]

Packaged up the 15 surplus cockerels last night. The place is much quieter with only 4 roosters left.

These were around 15-16 weeks old.

Can truly say Ameraucanas and Jaerhons are NOT meat birds ;-)

On the white bird debate, I will say the dark bird carcasses have more dark pinfeather stumps, which are a pain if you are trying to make an impressive roast. I generally skin when slow-cooking, so that's where the ones with polks-dot skins will go.

The buckeye carcasses were only slightly more breast endowed than the Delawares and Speckled Sussex. But the leg quarters on these heritage birds are always amazing.

The length of wing is always shocking compared to a store CornX, simply age as the store CornX are only 35 days old.

So, next year we do the Buckeye/Delaware cross early enough that I can grow them to more like 20 weeks. We pasture, so the additional feed bill is not too bad. We will keep you posted.

To get significant breast meat, I think a cross is going to have to include Cornish. I do not currently have Cornish, as they are notoriously bad layers. However, if I find someone local with a spare Dark Cornish Rooster, I may have to consider taking him on just for the cross-breeding experiment.

I am all for finding the perfect DP pure-breed for our situation, but cross-breeding for meat purposes in all species has a long tradition as well. No one should be ashamed of trying different crosses for this purpose from time to time.

At the moment, we are pretty fond of the Buckeyes.

 

[Rebecky54]

Just found this thread -- interesting to me because I like a DP bird and I'd like to improve my hatchery stock. I have Buff Orpingtons now (among others) - started with them 20 years ago because my grandmother raised them. I moved 2 years ago and didn't bring my flock with me, but just got chooks again this spring. I ended up with a mixed flock because I was given many "Easter chicks" from people that bought them for their kids/grandkids for Easter. So I have 8 BO, 1 BR, 4 EE, 1 goldstar, 1 black sex-link, 1 CA white and 4 Australorp. I sold some BR and SL wyandottes because I didn't have coop room for winter. Now I wish I had kept more BR. Of this assortment, you can't beat the laying types for eggs. The BR matured the fastest and were probably the best birds. I didn't like the SL wyandottes (sold them all) -- they matured slowly and didn't seem to be as good of quality as the others. The Australorps are lovely birds and are laying well.

For crossbreds, I'd like to try BO and BR or perhaps Buff Rock and BO. What about Black Orp and Australorps, or are they too close already?

As far as Orpingtons, I do admit I like my BOs. They lay well, I've had only one mean roo in 20 years and they lay through the winter. They are broody and hatch their own chicks which is a plus for me, but you do miss out on eggs. I do think it's a good idea to bring new stock into a flock every few years so you don't keep inbreeding. However, I'm in No Dak now and I suspect I will lose some combs this winter, so I'm looking into Chanteclers now. I also have a pen of Blue Cochins, but I don't consider them utility stock -- they are food for my soul.

Becky who's going out to work on her coop

 

[terri9630]

Quote:
I got rid of our Calies in favour of our NZW's. I love my buck, he acts just like he's one of the dogs. A big love hound.

 

[Jared77]

That's what ALBC did with the Buckeye and made TREMENDOUS gains in only a few years. Can you imagine how far we could get if we focused our energy on getting birds from existing lines and selecting, generation after generation, for the meatiest, fastest growing birds, and then culling again for laying ability after the hens started laying?

Was this done with a closed flock? How many roosters did they have? What about those who don't want to keep multiple flocks for breeding?

I'm not opposed to linebreeding I'm VERY familiar with it, but the question is how to maintain a line long term.​

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Jared, I would duck over to the Heritage Breed thread on the Breeds and Genetics forum and pick Bob's mind. He just said today that he would start out with a few pairs in his chosen breeds and made sure he maintained access to the original bloodlines in case he ever needed new bloods, but in 20+ years he had never bred himself into a corner and needed to tap into that outside blood.

He is a master poultry man, and though he breeds for show, breeding for function follows the same practices and techniques.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
I would have to disagree.... I have ALBC Buckeyes.... they did a great job but I did one outcross with an extra rooster over some cx hens and the offspring are hands down a better bird than the Buckeye. That's just one outcross, it's not a shabby attempt just a smart one. You can only go so far with line breeding, if you want to change a characteristic new blood needs to be brought in especially when adding body confirmation. The way the ALBC Buckeyes where selected was through a variety of body confirmation test to get the best genetic potential, however that potential can only go so far. Do keep in mind that they did use multiple lines of Buckeyes not just from one closed flock. Hybrid vigor gives the genetic potential needed to go outside those boundaries. For instance when I crossed the Buckeye rooster with a cx hen the hens turned out to have a wider head, backbone and breast plate. This instantly changes the genetic potential of the Buckeye strain that I'm developing. They are automatically healthier, bigger, wider, forage great, and have white feathers which is a plus for processing.

The goal is to continue to work on the Buckeye to get the processing age down to 16 weeks on a consistent basis. I would like to improve on the egg color and the rate of lay but that should be easier to do than changing confirmation of the body.

The goal with the outcross line with the cx blood is to get the processing down to 12 weeks with a better body confirmation.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
That's exactly how the better poultry farmers (including the backyard flocks that every farm had) handled things years ago. There were no mail-order chickens, no hybrids to speak of: everyone who aspired above the level of subsistence farmer selectively bred not just their chickens, but their sheep and their cattle and their horses and their turnips and their corn. Among animals, chickens were the easiest to work with, however, because of their size and the rapid cycling of generations.

Read the old farm books: the best were pre-WWII, when the emphasis shifted from home-based agriculture to industrial agriculture (My high-school Vocational Agriculture textbooks back in the 1960s were published by Dow Chemical). Practically all the chicken breeds we talk about now came about from breeding programs by family farmers. And family farmers who are interested (and by farmer, I have down-sized the definition considerably to include the typical member of this board) in reviving the chickens' original purpose--to provide a self-sustaining supply of eggs and meat and new chickens--can do it without re-inventing the wheel. HaikuHeritage has it exactly right.

I'm still a firm believer in genetic diversity.... even the ALBC will tell you that the breeders just aren't as high as they used to be. To me of course these birds shinned years ago... when family farms developed breeds to fit their needs they where full of genetic diversity. Pre WW11 was when most of the breeds where developed and some way earlier. However do keep in mind that some breeds where developed by using 5 different breeds or more. The genetics of those birds must have been amazing... so they may have linebred for 20 plus years. Most breeds are well over a hundred years old, and with the majority of the breeds being in the hands of big hatcheries, that do not do squat to improve anything, the genetics have no where to go but down. Call it what you want but it's simply bad genetics by poor breeders despite who they are and how they did it.

You know what's neat though.... I see way more projects on this site about developing a chicken that fits peoples needs than I did 5 years ago here. That's the way it started in the early 1900's so it's neat to see that history repeats itself. I have to say the project that I'm doing and the ones I read about are making great progress and most of the crosses are better than any DP breed available today. To me, that's not too shabby hey?

 

[Jared77]

I've been all over that thread, and have read all 100+ pages. Yes there are some master poultry folks and yes they make it serious business when it comes to working with a breed or breeds. The problem I have is they have how many birds? How many different runs, different flocks of birds that they work with? Thats not very realistic due to space and/or cost to the small time folks. At that point you might as well just order broilers from a hatchery and keep a layer flock. Thats why Id thought about a cross before, and then Jeff mentioned it here, it prompted me to post my ideas too. Maybe the red broiler from ideal is a Buckeye x NH cross, and the black is a Buckeye x Australorp cross. We just don't know.

The Buckeye x NH cross or Buckeye x RIR cross that I've kicked around is not to produce a new breed, its to give me faster growing meaty chicks that I could produce every year and keep me in eggs for the rest of the season. The chicks that I raise from that cross will all be freezer bound in the fall. Its the same line of thinking like the CX but the breeding is known and I don't know or care if the chicks are sustainable. I think for too long I've been on this quest to find a great breed that will suit my needs, when in fact a cross would really perform like I need. I don't know but I think its worth exploring. Worst thing that happens is I process everybody and start over in a different direction.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

But if you want a sustainable flock, and have decided that your ideal is a cross, wouldn't you basically have to maintain three separate flocks? One to reproduce your roo, one to reproduce your hens, and then the mixed flock for your meaties?

I dunno, I am not anti-innovation. I am working on some "projects" as well, but I do know that the frame work for my ideal dual-purpose breed, from a functional stand-point, already exists and that is the Chantecler. It has the size and frame to support a good meat bird, the features to make it extremely cold-hardy, and the potential to be a good year-round layer. It would take maybe two-three years for me to get the stock I have readily available up to that standard, but it could be done. These birds will never mature in 12 weeks, but if I wanted a bird that grew that fast, I would just get Cornish X.