Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Wynette]

I just hate to see birds that are meant to be dual purpose get smaller and smaller because we breed them to be pretty first and meat second. Just my opinion and I know its worth squat. Feed costs enough that raising small birds doesn't make a lot of sense to me right now, that's all.

First of all, EVERYONE'S opinion is worth something, so stop with the "worth squat" stuff. We all learn from each other!!

I am in agreement with you. In fact, I think about it often. Those who communicate with me off BYC will tell you that I'm always commenting about our stock decreasing in size. I think it's a fine line, and as we do linebreeding, size will decrease. Yet, when adding an outside line, you run the chance that your egg color will suffer. The whole egg color thing is what makes a Marans a Marans at the end of the day. So.............

 

[maryhysong]

Fodder takes too long for someone who does let their birds out to range. 22% protein is 17$ a 50# bag here so I do that and can feed it to all the birds and the ducks and now turkeys too. Fermenting was the plan but its tough in winter if you don't have a place inside that's convenient to keep it bubbling.

I guess what gets me about all the gene things is this: I am not a scientist, much as I like it, and I don't have the room or where with all to raise out 20 chicks just for s n g. They could be culled to meat I guess, which is part of the plan here but it wasn't in the business plan. If I breed a male with light legs (as in silvery whitish) to a bcm hen who doesn't show any signs of wheaton then aren't I dooming that next gen to carry the wheaten? I ask because I have a large cockerel here, biggest one so far, who is light in the hackles and legs. His feathering and size were what had me thinking to use him and I got advice to put him over a meleniz/sed hen (one where the copper doesn't show in her neck well) to counteract the light hackles. Should I can this idea? I have a few other boys here that aren't as big. I just hate to see birds that are meant to be dual purpose get smaller and smaller because we breed them to be pretty first and meat second. Just my opinion and I know its worth squat. Feed costs enough that raising small birds doesn't make a lot of sense to me right now, that's all.
FWIW... growing sunflower seeds and peanuts is easy.

First of all, EVERYONE'S opinion is worth something, so stop with the "worth squat" stuff. We all learn from each other!!

I am in agreement with you. In fact, I think about it often. Those who communicate with me off BYC will tell you that I'm always commenting about our stock decreasing in size. I think it's a fine line, and as we do linebreeding, size will decrease. Yet, when adding an outside line, you run the chance that your egg color will suffer. The whole egg color thing is what makes a Marans a Marans at the end of the day. So.............

I agree with you; personally I think that a dual purpose bird should be nice big and meaty and lay lots of eggs. I think in a DP breed those two things should be a given first. ashandvine that is cheap feed. 22% here is about $25/50 pounds. ;-( But feeding smallish birds doesn't make any sense to me either. I would think that before using the smaller bird I'd test mate that big guy and see if he's got the wheaton. That way you would know for sure and would know which way to go in the future.

Wynette yes heavy inbreeding *can* decrease stock size. But I think partly it happens when you don't keep the biggest ones in the bunch to breed the next generation. I don't have a lot of experience in chickens but in rabbits I have bred 6 generations of daughters back to the same buck with no decrease in size, just a strengthening of the color and fur qualities. (Of course rabbits don't have a lot of sex linked things going on in them). In the end my bucks were actually bigger than their sire. That could have been environment tho because I did not breed and raise the original buck but received him as an adult. It also meant raising about 100=150 babies to 8 weeks to keep one to three breeders from.

I am still trying to acquire some BCM to work with but my current game plan will be to hatch out as many as possible from as many different combinations of parents as possible. Then choosing the very largest birds to work with, narrow them down to the ones that come closest to the standard. Then go from there. Develop two or three lines of birds if at all possible from the same genetic base so that I could cross them in the future if I felt I needed to. Of course all pie in the sky at the moment; still trying to get some stock to work with!

 

[DMRippy]

22% Layer feed for Tuckers is $13.99 a bag and I get at least a $.25 discount for bulk.... sometimes $.50 if I get a ton. Easy to do here... truck just can't handle the weight.

 

[math ace]

... , and as we do linebreeding, size will decrease. Yet, when adding an outside line, you run the chance that your egg color will suffer. The whole egg color thing is what makes a Marans a Marans at the end of the day. So.............

Wynette, what makes the size decrease as you line breed. I would think if you start with a big roo and then only cross him to his biggest daughters and granddaughters, that size should be maintained, if not increased.

 

[math ace]

. . . Wynette yes heavy inbreeding *can* decrease stock size. But I think partly it happens when you don't keep the biggest ones in the bunch to breed the next generation.

So I am not the only one that expects size to maintain or increase, if culling for size as the flock moves into the next generation.

 

[gilavina]

Wynette, what makes the size decrease as you line breed. I would think if you start with a big roo and then only cross him to his biggest daughters and granddaughters, that size should be maintained, if not increased.

Hey Lisa,

I use linebreeding once I get my set of birds established that I feel will give me the best consistency and such, in all the breeds I work with. Speaking from experience in other breeds I've worked with in terms of linebreeding, if selection is done properly, decrease in size does not need to happen, when selection for size and type is made a priority.

 

[maryhysong]

Hey Lisa,

I use linebreeding once I get my set of birds established that I feel will give me the best consistency and such, in all the breeds I work with. Speaking from experience in other breeds I've worked with in terms of linebreeding, if selection is done properly, decrease in size does not need to happen, when selection for size and type is made a priority.

I think that is the key. Whatever you have as your priority, that you select for first, is going to be dominant in the next generation (usually, barring the weirdo recessives coming out and whatnot). I think if you were to select for size in your first couple of generations, then hatch as many as possible, select only the largest birds, and then begin culling based on DQs, color, ect. until you are down to a select few that are the biggest from their hatch and as close to the standard as can be, to breed forward, I think that would give you the best basis to work from.

In my rabbit example I had 3 criteria; number one was size. From each litter I looked at ONLY the largest baby in the bunch. (of course had several litters at a time) Then from those biggest babies I selected based on sex (I needed more does of better quality) and my last criteria was fur quality. (NOT color, but the quality of the fur itself; pretty much the color was already there, it just needed the right texture of the fur to be correct). That meant from a batch of 40-50 babies I kept ONE. In reviewing my pedigrees after a few litters I could see that one or two does NEVER had a baby selected as a keeper and so they were culls and better girls took their place. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

I understand chicken genetics is much more complex and there are many more things going on in a chicken than in a rabbit. And a lot of things going on in many lines of Marans that are not going on in some other lines/breeds of birds. That means having to hatch out and raised much larger numbers of animals to allow as many different combinations of DNA as possible. But once you get a good combination you should be able to move forward fairly rapidly.

If linebreeding caused a decrease in size and quality in and of itself then there would be no large domestic animals of any kind. No large dogs, cows, horses, birds,ect. Because almost all separate breeds of animals were originally line bred from an exceptional parent, whose special qualities were wanted in more animals.

Now line breeding CAN cause a decrease in size, that is how many miniature breeds are made, by breeding the smallest to the smallest. But that is because the smallest size is being selected for. Line breeding also concentrates the genes. Yes it will bring out recessive genes. Recessive genes are not always a bad thing. They might be just what you were looking for. It is up to the breeder to decide what they want, what they are keeping and what they are culling.

 

[Wynette]

From the research I've done, the only way for linebreeding to NOT result in smaller size as the years go by, regardless of how you select your breeder stock, is for you to bring in a new male from the same breed line about every 4-5 years. That's what I do, and so far, I have not seen any size decreases. I could be wrong, just posting what I have learned from old-time breeders. This is being discussed on the Heritage LF thread of late. It's been done forever, it seems, in other livestock and has been done successfully.

 

[snowbird]

Hey ALL, When the Fowl decrease in size most on BYC are inbreeding Brother and sister hatch mates. When line breeding your fowl if you are selecting the right fowl you should never have a decrease in size. I have two different breeds of bantam that I have bred for over 30 years with no decrease in size. The biggest mistake the novice breeder makes is breeding hatch mates that are brother and sister

 

[Wynette]

The biggest mistake the novice breeder makes is breeding hatch mates that are brother and sister

I agree.