Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Lacy Blues]

Bob,

Wanted to ask you...

When you were making bantam Javas ages ago, did you say that you developed one group by using a bantam of other breed?

I am wondering because... and I'd like to hear from you based on your experience as well as others who have some genetic knowledge they can share... in my bantam Andalusian project, I have gotten chicks with a very wide range of sizes and what I'm wondering is... will EVERY chick since the beginning of this project receive the bantam gene passed from the daddy that started it all? If I keep the ones that are larger and pretty nice birds in their own right, to use with my large fowl, do they carry and will they pass on the bantam gene as well?

 

[bnjrob]

Bob,

Wanted to ask you...

When you were making bantam Javas ages ago, did you say that you developed one group by using a bantam of other breed?

I am wondering because... and I'd like to hear from you based on your experience as well as others who have some genetic knowledge they can share... in my bantam Andalusian project, I have gotten chicks with a very wide range of sizes and what I'm wondering is... will EVERY chick since the beginning of this project receive the bantam gene passed from the daddy that started it all? If I keep the ones that are larger and pretty nice birds in their own right, to use with my large fowl, do they carry and will they pass on the bantam gene as well?

Bob has discussed making bantam Javas, but he hasn't done it personally that I know of.

Monte Bowen has bantam Javas he made by crossing Black Java cockerel and a Black Rock bantam pullet. You can see photos of them on the Java Breeders of America blog entry from October 2011.

 

[3riverschick]

This is Mohawk V from 1927 picture done by Schilling and who I named this line that I took over from
Mr. E W Reese Jr. 20 years ago.
-----------------------------------
My glory, what a bird!

Except for the fact he is high on leg for Sussex type, he would make a stunning Sussex!
Wow,
Karen

 

[Dahlisgrams]

Karen, all any of us can do is share our experience and some of us have a few years, some a decade or two and some of us have a half century of caring for the birds. Experience isn't laboratory testing, but .........

I believe that many modern birds, especially the super hybrid layers, come into point of lay far too quickly. Since the genetics are zipped up to do so, lay heavy and sadly, die too young, in most cases, it is absolutely to your advantage to dial back the protein from weeks 12-19. This adolescent period really needs to be slowed. This IS laboratory and field tested, at millions of dollars for research for the industry.

Heirloom birds? Bred to the standard? Out of DNA that is 100 years old? Well, with our ringlet Barred Rocks from the old Thompson line, you don't want to slow them down. They are notoriously s..l..o..w.. already. They can handle the protein, plus they simply have twice the size to them. They are HUGE and require nutrition, good, balanced nutrition. It isn't just calcium, but animal protein, in a balanced feed and enriched with whole grains that make these birds grow right. In order to feed some 25%-50% of their diet in whole grains, I believe one must feed a Game Bird 24%, with animal protein to balance out those grains. This half scratch, half Game Bird makes these big, old line birds into what they were designed to be.

Such lines have very, very little in common with the "modern", tiny, light weight, small framed production strains typically sold at feed stores and hatcheries. Each type of bird has its place. I believe their dietary needs to be vastly different.

So, there's an old timer's 10 cents worth. Sorry to go on so long.

Is this what you would recommend for chicks, growers and adult birds?

Right now I'm feeding fermented oats, a handful of alfalfa pellets, calf manna, a bit of scratch with some corn and less than 50% of the mixture is 18% protein chick starter/grower. They also have access to 16% layer pellets for adults, or chick starter for the youngsters. The calf manna addition is relatively new and so far so good. Just wondering if I should switch to higher protein game bird for use in the mash. It's pretty confusing and as much as I try to keep it simple, it really isn't.

 

[thedragonlady]

And "Pecker" would love it !

 

[Fred's Hens]

Is this what you would recommend for chicks, growers and adult birds?

Right now I'm feeding fermented oats, a handful of alfalfa pellets, calf manna, a bit of scratch with some corn and less than 50% of the mixture is 18% protein chick starter/grower. They also have access to 16% layer pellets for adults, or chick starter for the youngsters. The calf manna addition is relatively new and so far so good. Just wondering if I should switch to higher protein game bird for use in the mash. It's pretty confusing and as much as I try to keep it simple, it really isn't.

There is a zillion ways to go. But, when it's all said and done, most folks with large bodied, old time fowl like to hit that sweet spot of 18-22% protein. Some like a percentage of hard grains, some don't. Others just pick a 20% animal protein All Flock or Grower type feed and done, done. Whatever works for you and your plan.

There is a ton of research in a top, Name brand feed. I read the literature. I trust the research. I apply it wisely, I hope. I study my own birds for results to my own eye. I do not re-invent the wheel. I've no time for that, as in, creating/mixing my own feed. I like my local feed mills. The guys do it right and treat me right.

 

[NeilsHamburgs]

There is an old website for a "gold coast farm" that is no longer in use. He seems to have many heritage breeds. He also has the same strain of hamburgs and rocks as I do but nowhere on the site is his name given. Email is also not working. Anyone know who this might be?

 

[Dahlisgrams]

Quote: Hence the confusion! I like to use whole grains rather than just straight up commercial feed and the aim with my ingredients was actually 20%. It seems to be working for the flock so maybe I shouldn't change anything. Using game plus calf manna might be more than they need. Or I could make things really complicated and feed half of them with my current feed and try the game/whole grains on the other and see. Hmm..

Seems to me the large Heritage breeds do need more protein, no doubt about it. I just want to do it right but haven't quite enough experience yet to figure out what is "right" for these birds in this location.

 

[bnjrob]

Hence the confusion! I like to use whole grains rather than just straight up commercial feed and the aim with my ingredients was actually 20%. It seems to be working for the flock so maybe I shouldn't change anything. Using game plus calf manna might be more than they need. Or I could make things really complicated and feed half of them with my current feed and try the game/whole grains on the other and see. Hmm..

Seems to me the large Heritage breeds do need more protein, no doubt about it. I just want to do it right but haven't quite enough experience yet to figure out what is "right" for these birds in this location.

Well then too, you can see feed that looks comparable on the label, but there might just be something slightly different in one that might make a difference. I've seen this with when we switched dog & cat food several years ago. The labels were the same but one was slightly cheaper. Went with the cheaper one and the dogs & cats fur became noticeably thicker and softer than it had been on the more expensive brand. But while on the first brand, they were all healthy and looked good and we didn't know that they could look and feel even better. That is why I am still researching to see if there is something that will make a difference for our chickens. Especially since I already know that not being big enough has been a problem in my chosen breed. Doesn't help that brands and types of feed in my area is kinda limited.

 

[thedragonlady]

Hence the confusion! I like to use whole grains rather than just straight up commercial feed and the aim with my ingredients was actually 20%. It seems to be working for the flock so maybe I shouldn't change anything. Using game plus calf manna might be more than they need. Or I could make things really complicated and feed half of them with my current feed and try the game/whole grains on the other and see. Hmm..

Seems to me the large Heritage breeds do need more protein, no doubt about it. I just want to do it right but haven't quite enough experience yet to figure out what is "right" for these birds in this location.

Whole grains will not come close to supplying the necessary protein percentage that you need unless you are supplementing with animal products, or Calf Manna. Whole grains will LOWER any ration to below 12%, if more than half.. You need to make that up with animal protein, or CM. I'd much rather feed CM than Soy, or cotton seed meal, and I still supplement with some animal fats.