Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[desertmarcy]

I use a digital kitchen scale for weighing similar to: http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=40596600&RN=1151&

The challenge is to get the bird to still a few seconds. I bring the bird into my mudroom and have the scales sitting on the floor. It sometimes takes a few times putting the bird on the scales. My scales are just large enough for me to get both of the bird's feet on it.

Don Schrider uses a square bucket & puts the bird in the bucket and uses hanging scales.

I use a large cardboard box, set the box on the scale, subtract the box weight. I am just using an old baby scale I bought at a swap meet for $1. I tested it, it is accurate to about 1/8 pound. Good enough!

 

[capayvalleychick]

In your opinion how far away would I need the coop/yardpens to be between the Buckeyes & any other birds that I could allow to free range at the same time w/o fear of them mixing in any way? (or should I just stick to alternate days loose?)

I had Buckeyes for a few years, no longer have them, but I do have experience with free ranging chickens. I live on 20 acres that is 400 ft. wide, so it's a long rectangle. I have grass pastures in the lower part of the property that are 1500 ft long x 90 ft. The area is divided by electric rope, which the chickens are able to cross. I have large mobile coop out there, that I move around as part of a rotational grazing plan with other livestock. There aren't any trees in the pastures, and the chickens will roam all over it, if there is something of interest to them. I couldn't put another group of chickens out there because they will go to visit with any other chickens that they can see.
My house & outbuildings are on the back 5 acres of the property. There are trees & shrubs, etc. that block the view from the pastures. I am able to free range another group of chickens here, because the two groups can't see each other.
If I move individual chickens from one area to another, I have to do it at night and make sure that the mobile coop is at a far point away from the house. I have had some birds that get upset at being moved and will travel from the pasture back to the house.
One positive experience that I had with the Buckeyes was that they were able to hatch out & raise a brood in the mobile coop. That coop is not set up for chicks at all. It gets moved once a week, so the eggs get bounced around. I let a hen go broody in there, one time, just to see what would happen. There were two breeds of chicks that hatched. When they went out to range, I kept finding dead chicks every evening that did not make it back into the coop. The survivors were all Buckeyes. They grew up to be the largest of all that I had.
They are definitely a hardy breed.

 

[FeyRaine]

Your distinction between Breeder, Preservationist & chicken collector is a very useful way of putting things.

I fall in that middle group; preservationist.

I don't intend to have huge flocks or really go to shows w/ birds. I've got poultry at all b/c I'm trying to feed myself & DH from our homestead, I'm in that way an "end user" as I actually need exactly the traits of these older breeds, if my flock isn't foraging well and stops laying in bad weather we don't have eggs to eat, etc. But now that I have a little time in w/ keeping poultry on my land in my exact situation I feel that there is no point in my having random mutt birds. As long as I'm going to all this effort to have poultry I might as well actually contribute to help keep the gene pool of a rare breed (or a couple rare breeds) around. Given disasters like Katrina, Sandy etc. it is in the best interest of all that some GOOD birds be in many different locations. It would be hardly better than keeping my current mutts for me to have not really it (not to standard say) rare breed birds if the idea is my flock is a fallback for the gene pool in case of some disaster.

In my mind, to be doing any good as a Preservationist, I need to :

1) Start w/ the best stock I can afford, hopefully birds that are to the Standard
2) Make sure that I cull (eat) birds that are less perfect than what I start with
3) Bring in new stock often enough to avoid problems
4) Make sure that a few of my very best birds go back out into the wider gene pool from time to time, esp. to help others get started with the breed
5) Be willing, in the event of some terrible disaster to make my birds available to the true Breeders in the event they need to re-create lost lines / breeds of which I have survivors.

That is just how I personally view what it is that I am doing, what my aim is, why I'm willing to spend a little more than if I just stayed w/ my current mutts & hatchery birds.
I'm sure everyone has their own reasons and situation, but for me I feel like I can "do good" w/o having to become a top breeder, or attend shows, provided I do turn to the more knowledgeable Breeders for guidance on how well I am doing (or not doing) to keep my rare bird flock a viable and useful part of that breed's gene pool.

As far as the conversation re buying/selling culls - I think the term cull is very general in that it can mean anything from a sick bird that died & you burn it & its coop, to a bird that has an off for Standard color or something so you eat it, to the mutt birds I'm "culling" this week by giving to my neighbor who needs some chickens but wouldn't know a RIR from a Pheniox, to the jr roo Buckeye referenced earlier in this thread which would likely be far more perfect than anything I'll by from a hatchery but doesn't make the cut as best male bird for the Breeder who currently might cull that bird by selling him to a wanna be Preservationist like me.


FeyRaine

 

[fowlman01]

A "cull" to some breeders is a bird who could do very well in a show, but is not up to their standards......for almost any reason........it could be missing a toe nail...which is no big deal.
A show bird to some can be a bird with multiple faults that would lead to a DQ in a show. It is hard to know what a cull or a "show bird" really is to each person. Again, this is why you have to do research. Research the seller and research the breed so that you know what a good one looks like. I don't sell real culls.......I plant them in the garden.

Walt

 

[Chris09]

3) Bring in new stock often enough to avoid problems
FeyRaine

There are very good breeders out there that have had closed flock for over 10 years and never had to bring in new stock.

When you bring in new stock is when you can get into some trouble. If the new stock does not cross well with what you started with you will be back to square one.

Chris

 

[Fred's Hens]

Your distinction between Breeder, Preservationist & chicken collector is a very useful way of putting things.

I fall in that middle group; preservationist.

I don't intend to have huge flocks or really go to shows w/ birds. I've got poultry at all b/c I'm trying to feed myself & DH from our homestead, I'm in that way an "end user" as I actually need exactly the traits of these older breeds, if my flock isn't foraging well and stops laying in bad weather we don't have eggs to eat, etc. But now that I have a little time in w/ keeping poultry on my land in my exact situation I feel that there is no point in my having random mutt birds. As long as I'm going to all this effort to have poultry I might as well actually contribute to help keep the gene pool of a rare breed (or a couple rare breeds) around. Given disasters like Katrina, Sandy etc. it is in the best interest of all that some GOOD birds be in many different locations. It would be hardly better than keeping my current mutts for me to have not really it (not to standard say) rare breed birds if the idea is my flock is a fallback for the gene pool in case of some disaster.

In my mind, to be doing any good as a Preservationist, I need to :

1) Start w/ the best stock I can afford, hopefully birds that are to the Standard
2) Make sure that I cull (eat) birds that are less perfect than what I start with
3) Bring in new stock often enough to avoid problems
4) Make sure that a few of my very best birds go back out into the wider gene pool from time to time, esp. to help others get started with the breed
5) Be willing, in the event of some terrible disaster to make my birds available to the true Breeders in the event they need to re-create lost lines / breeds of which I have survivors.

That is just how I personally view what it is that I am doing, what my aim is, why I'm willing to spend a little more than if I just stayed w/ my current mutts & hatchery birds.
I'm sure everyone has their own reasons and situation, but for me I feel like I can "do good" w/o having to become a top breeder, or attend shows, provided I do turn to the more knowledgeable Breeders for guidance on how well I am doing (or not doing) to keep my rare bird flock a viable and useful part of that breed's gene pool.

As far as the conversation re buying/selling culls - I think the term cull is very general in that it can mean anything from a sick bird that died & you burn it & its coop, to a bird that has an off for Standard color or something so you eat it, to the mutt birds I'm "culling" this week by giving to my neighbor who needs some chickens but wouldn't know a RIR from a Pheniox, to the jr roo Buckeye referenced earlier in this thread which would likely be far more perfect than anything I'll by from a hatchery but doesn't make the cut as best male bird for the Breeder who currently might cull that bird by selling him to a wanna be Preservationist like me.


FeyRaine

Actually, most breeders may tell you this is actually the way to produce problems in producing breed consistency.

 

[7961]

http://www.pathfindersfarm.com/index.html

Web page for the breeder of Buckeyes in Kentucky Bob referred to.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:

I'm just wondering at what point you consider the stock from a "new line." Although I suspect the answer is, "If it causes problems it's a new line. If it doesn't cause more problems than it solves, it's the same line."

Here's why I'm wondering: based on what I've read, most of the Black Java bloodlines in existence today came through Duane Urch, who got them maybe 50 years ago. A few breeders got birds from Mr. Urch and have been working on them for the last 10-20 years. I have ordered chicks from Mr. Urch for delivery in the spring. I was talking to another Black Java breeder in my area and he is not sure of the exact lineage of the birds he has. He assumes the birds originated from Mr. Urch's birds at some point, although he got them from someone else. Are we asking for trouble if we cross some of Mr. Urch's birds into the other line? Or can we assume that they were all the same lineage to start with a couple of decades ago, so it should be ok to cross them now?

Sarah

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
I think you'd be correct there so one shouldn't get so caught up whether they are buying culls. Just educate and decide for yourself, if what you are seeing is what you think the breed is supposed to look like. I have in my mind's eye what I think a Buckeye should look like in addition to the hands-on techniques I tried to describe.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quote:[/FONT] You want to decide your breeding system and stick with it. Bringing in new stock is not so much a problem or risk with Buckeyes right now as with some of the other breeds as most lines eventually go back to Urch and so the outcross with another's line usually is not so much so. This will become a problem as these lines diverge more over the years. The population as a whole just recently increased substantially. As you may or may not be aware, there are also two Buckeye groups of breeders and we don't mix much (and don't care for one another too much although there is mutual respect). I cannot help believe that this condition, while ridiculed early on by people looking in deciding whether to take on Buckeyes, is probably healthy for the breed's longevity. What I mean is that you have these two distinct populations of Buckeyes, both moving forward and both vastly improving, in different ways, but better for the breed because of the genetic diversity it represents.

When you refer to bringing in new stock, you are probably referring to out and out breeding or flock sourcing (bringing in new roosters from different sources or from the same source, respectfully) but over time, this can lead to inconsistent production rather than the improvement breeding you will want to seek and the latter, though better, doesn't really help you maintain the diversity of your breed. Other systems are flock mating, rolling matings (old farmer's method) or spiral matings (clan matings). Schrider has said that some breeders have kept a flock for 80 years without the introduction of new blood by using spiral mating. Both rolling matings and especially spiral mating methods will let you maintain genetic diversity within your flock as a whole and improvement breeding (keeping your best in each group). Flock mating is not as controlled as you are just keeping a several males in a flock as one breeding unit (this is usually the large hatchery method & is why their stock generally declines) -- this would also be a confusing way for me to do it.

 

[fowlman01]

I'm just wondering at what point you consider the stock from a "new line." Although I suspect the answer is, "If it causes problems it's a new line. If it doesn't cause more problems than it solves, it's the same line."

Here's why I'm wondering: based on what I've read, most of the Black Java bloodlines in existence today came through Duane Urch, who got them maybe 50 years ago. A few breeders got birds from Mr. Urch and have been working on them for the last 10-20 years. I have ordered chicks from Mr. Urch for delivery in the spring. I was talking to another Black Java breeder in my area and he is not sure of the exact lineage of the birds he has. He assumes the birds originated from Mr. Urch's birds at some point, although he got them from someone else. Are we asking for trouble if we cross some of Mr. Urch's birds into the other line? Or can we assume that they were all the same lineage to start with a couple of decades ago, so it should be ok to cross them now?

Sarah

You can't assume anything.......sometimes you can't even believe it if they told you they got the birds from Duane Urch. Hatcheries have Java's too. People will say whatever it takes to sell birds...not everyone, but go to the Marans thread and see how many birds came from Wade Jean. If he sold all those birds he would have to have raised millions of them. lol

People believe what the seller tells them and then they expand on that. It only takes a year or two to totally change a line of chickens. If I sell birds to someone and they don't cull right or don't know what they are doing, I sure don't want them saying they are my line......they were until the "breeder" messed them up. I have had a closed flock of white Leghorn bantams for over 30 years and have not needed to go elsewhere to "improve" them.

Walt