Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Pozees]

The first thing I would recommend is that you read everything from page one to page 38 in the APA SOP. Page 5 tells you what you need to do to get the Orloff's into the SOP. When you are ready to do that I can help you. You will see that the quickest it can be done if you start today is five years. Keeping chickens is pretty easy. Breeding good chickens is a knack that not everyone has, but can be learned with good research and guidance. Some will excel and some won't, but one of the most important things is....patience! I have been raising chickens, ducks and geese for about 50 years and I'm still learning. I become a little annoyed at the 2-3 year wonders who post on this site cuz they know it all, but I'm still learning. It makes me feel like I should have learned all this that quick.....makes me sad that I am such a poor study and they are so good at it.
Hey! But I knew you were talking about Orloffs, so you have to give me a cookie this time.

Walt

The more we learn, the more aware we become of all there is we don't yet know. I am loading up with reading material, in fact downloaded the W.H. Card book Bob posted the link to earlier and am a bit more than halfway through it, having to go back and re-read to try and wrap my head around it all. The linebreeding chart is useful, discussion of color is the section I am reading now (reds and buffs), and I already know I will be reading the entire thing again once I get through the first reading. Each volume I finish reminds me of how much there is I don't know, and I am grateful for all of you, again, who take the time to share what you have learned with those of us trying to learn. I want you to know I take every piece of advice to heart, as do, I'm sure, the many others like me, here to learn from you.

 

[fowlman01]

The session was hosted by our local poultry club, The Great Lakes Poultry Association. The information session yesterday was presented by Don Stephenson using his very successful bantam White Rocks. Although this event wasn't specifically ABA/APA sanctioned, there were more copies of the SOP on the tables than I've ever seen before. The folks in this club are pretty serious about poultry; breeding them and showing them, many of them for a LOT of years.

I believe Walt has done similar educational sessions in California. I also know of other APA judges and experienced breeders that will conduct informational/educational sessions. Find out who is in your area and try to organize something. I believe there is something planned for later on this winter in Michigan. I'll make a point of making sure details of that are published here so folks have a chance to attend if they are interested. (It's also a GREAT way to make connections with potential mentors .... )

I do them, but only if someone organizes the event. There is no better way to learn chickens than seeing them and handling them. There are some quick ways to grade chickens if someone shows you how to do it. Shows are a good place as well, but speaking for myself I can be pretty busy at a show and not have time to do much teaching.

A heads up! Don't try to engage a breeder when they are putting in or taking out their birds at a show.

Walt

 

[buffalogal]

Meh, nevermind. I should read *all* the pages before i respond.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote:
My experience with the breeders at shows - let them know in advance that you would like to meet with them. I haven't met one yet that wasn't more than willing/eager to "show me around his birds" and discuss them at length - as long as he had some control over when that meeting might take place.

 

[buffalogal]

For breeders, going to shows is like going to church, it keeps you on the straight and narrow.

Love this. Might have to stitch up a sampler to hang in the chicken house.

 

[CluckyCharms]

I would amend that slightly say one can claim to have a "line" when they have managed to produce birds that have some noticeable trait they original birds didn't. (Could be better, could be worse, but there needs to be something different) You don't have a line just because you hatched some chicks.

I agree with Chris on this after thinking it over. It's not about traits I don't think. Traits are something that is easily distinguishable in the general sense.

It could be something as minor as an out of place eyelash or a leg with a spur that has a little tiny pinhead sized calcium deposit on it. It could be something so miniscule that someone doesn't even notice or look for something that small - but an extremely discerning (or picky) breeder might look at that and say you know what? I don't want a chick with a weird eyelash in my line..and cull it.

If breeder B buys a trio from breeder A, and breeds only that trio - the chicks that come from only that trio would only continue to be Breeder A's line still if Breeder A was there at Breeder B's location and was able to personally pick and choose which chicks they felt were culls and which were a part of their line according to **their** standards, not Breeder B's (which doesn't happen).

A bird can meet SOP and be show quality - and still be a cull to a discerning breeder, and not be a cull to another.

If breeder B decides to keep all the chicks and put them into his breeding program, they stop being breeder A's line because breeder A may have selectively culled a chick or two out of those in accordance with their personal standards...and thus, those chicks would not be in their "line" as defined by the word "lineage" - which would mean that "line" is only applicable if there are descendents. If that chick was a would-be cull to breeder A then that chick would not be in their line, even if it was hatched on their own farm...because it wouldn't have been bred, but culled off.

just my take on it... breeder a's line is whatever chickens breeder a decides to breed. lineage is what line is, and that requires ancestry and descendents. if breeder a doesn't want a chick in their line that has a tiny little itty bitty brown angel's kiss on their vent...they cull it. breeder b might not care about that silly little mole and decide to breed it - that's their line.

 

[cluck-cluck]

my two cents on what makes a line:

if i were a breeder and had people using my name as a representation of the birds they bred and are selling, i would be offended. obviously, i had nothing to do with the choices you're making and offspring resulting from those decisions. i find it shady and exploitative.

I agree. I'm kind of particular about who I sell birds to and I don't want them throwing my name around as "Walt Leonard's line". I don't mind if they say they got their start from me, but I don't want anything to do with whatever they produce.....even if it is outstanding. The first mating usually comes out very well, but after that it can go downhill rather quickly if they don't manage the breeding properly. This "who's line is it" discussion has gone on forever and can be very misleading. People use the original breeders name as a sales gimmick for the most part.

The other thing we breeders run across is people saying that they bred a winning bird..."No it is not a bird I bought from you Walt, it is one I produced on my own" while I am looking at my toe punch on the bird. Because they can't recognize a bird, they don't think anyone else can either. I can easily recognize birds hatched here. I recognize certain breedings done by good breeders. There is almost always a genetic imprint associated with a good line of birds.

Walt

See? And to a newbie like myself, I would have been afraid NOT to give credit for the birds, and inadvertently done the wrong thing! Now I know you can say you got your start from someone, or persons, but don't say it's their line. Glad I read this, though I don't think I'll breed much, I hate making stupid faux pas and worse, angering people around me!

I look at it like this,
It only takes one bad breeder one bad breeding to screw up a good breeders years of good breeding. (even with a trio)

Chris

I'm sure I could,

 

[Chris09]

I would amend that slightly say one can claim to have a "line" when they have managed to produce birds that have some noticeable trait they original birds didn't. (Could be better, could be worse, but there needs to be something different) You don't have a line just because you hatched some chicks.

Don't take this the wrong way but, how many times have you breed a pair of birds and there offspring looked identical to there parents?
There will always be something different between the parent stock and there chicks.



Quote: Since you picked the birds to bred you are starting a new line that is yours, the offspring has nothing to do with the original breeders line anymore except for being out of his stock.

Chris

 

[CluckyCharms]

Don't take this the wrong way but, how many times have you breed a pair of birds and there offspring looked identical to there parents?
There will always be something different between the parent stock and there chicks.



Since you picked the birds to bred you are starting a new line that is yours, the offspring has nothing to do with the original breeders line anymore except for being out of his stock.

Chris

I might be new but you opened my eyes a few posts ago and I just wanted to say thank you. TOTALLY makes sense what you're saying in regard to lineage.

 

[MrsMoonCat]

I was able to attend one of the presentations Walt did this past Spring as well as getting to tag along while he was helping a friend choose her breeding stock. It is amazing how clear things become when you have a knowledgeable person patiently explaining why a bird should be kept or sent on its way. I had read through the SOP several times and the light bulbs weren't just going off, they were blowing up over my head as he went through the pens. I immediately went home and separated my Andalusian flock into keepers and "others" based on what I had learned that day. I still have a long way to go, but I was armed with my own visual and first-hand examples now vs. what I had read and been told. It has also given me a better perspective as I've read back through the SOP. I really appreciated the chance to get some advice in person. Thanks Walt!