Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[thedragonlady]

Genetically this shouldn't really be the case though? Dogs and chickens both have the same number of chromosome pairs. Although I suppose other factors like meat quality, and egg production and such would be taken into account where with dogs obviously not. Of course there's also the chicken's ability to have far more offspring than a dog. One of my best friends is a Pharaoh Hound breeder and this is a discussion we've had multiple times and each of them has their own difficulties. As chickens for instance we don't have to do health checks for eyes, hips or any of that. We don't have a registry and pedigrees so if we have to bring in new blood to fix an issue of some sort we can without as much difficulty. So both are challenging, just in different ways.

When you tear up pedigrees , and start breeding type and color, irreregardless of heredity, it becomes fun, and seccessful, if you have an eye.. The AKC would put me under the jail for my winning Silkies' pedigrees years ago .HOWEVER...... as a long time dog breeder, I know for certain, that until the AKC started testing DNA on stud dogs a few years back, many pure-bred dogs' pedigrees were not worth the powder to blow them up.Those pedigrees were solely dependent on the integrity of the breeders.

Have a vision. Start a line. Keep only what fits your vision. Everything else leaves.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: I got two old hens three years old, one cock bird four years old, his son and I have two cock birds. I need some females. Last year I only hatched on chick a very nice ckl from this old male that came out of Bill Bowman line years ago. I got two chicks right now so better than last year. I need females so I can get the line going. In the javas I have two hens god knows how old maybe a pullet or 18 month old they all lay great so its not the end of the world on laying on these old hens. I have two males about two years old maybe three. I think I should hatch at least ten chicks big eggs, vigor's chickens ugly things but very rare in need of chicken moms and dads. bob

 

[cbnovick]

Coming up with an answer about quality vs. quantity is not cut and dry. The question would need to be asked for each breed and then for each strain in each breed. Different qualities are harder to get than others. Some breeds are available in high quality that just needs a fresh polishing each season others are devastatingly degraded and can only be improved by hatching in number and culling to a very few---or the advent of a chicken miracle.

astutely stated...

 

[fowlman01]

Can/will you elaborate, Walt? It's sometimes hard to get one's head around the notion that a chicken is more complicated or different to breed than any other creature.

I don't think I said it was harder to breed than any other creature. Most people don't know that I also have dogs. My wife is at the Cardigan Corgi Specialty all this week in Tuscon . We have had Corgi's for over 30 years and all the dogs here are champions or grand champions.......blah, blah blah....doesn't mean anything to me. I see what it takes to get a good dog and I know quite well what it takes to get a good chicken. Chickens are much more difficult.....lets just say that is my opinion based on actively pursuing both hobbies.

To make this easy to understand, just think of the color placement in most breeds of chickens. Silver laced Wyandottes comes to mind as a great example. There is no need or requirement to have every small section of a dog marked precisely like you have to have in a chicken. (this applies only to those folks that want to meet the APA SOP) That alone sets it apart and makes it much more complex. We don't have testing for hips etc because in this world that is taken care of by extinction. Even if no one culls them they are not going to reproduce after a very short time. Two years is the magic number in poultry. If you don't keep them where they are or improve them in two years you will go backwards........guaranteed!

If you don't already know how difficult it is to improve chickens I just don't know what else to say.

Walt

 

[BGMatt]

Very good point about the color markings. I was shocked that irregular patterns, asymmetrical markings were commonplace and not marked down in dogs and horses. (This probably explains my tendency to avoid mottled and splash birds as much as possible). I guess now that I have had time to think about it, we do have a lot more to take into account with poultry, and much stricter standards (although I'm one of those people that think we need to stick to our standards stricter than we do, I want to see scales at shows, and actual scorecards, we have a scale of points, use it.)

 

[3riverschick]

Originally Posted by fowlman01


Forget most everything you learned about breeding dogs, horses, cats etc when you start breeding chickens. It is not the same. There are far more variables in chickens.

Walt
--------------------
So the flip side of Walt's post is, "Where can we find common ground in breeding the different species?" The best place I know to start is the term "Rotational Line-breeding" (RLB). Tho it's definition is changed a bit with each species, the basic premise remains. Mixing blood for improvement of the stock. Here is how it is done in poultry:
Blosi's Rhode Island Reds
Rotational Line Breeding White Plymouth Rocks
One of the best methods of breeding large Fowl
http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id60.html
--------------------------Excerpt from article:
"In order to reach you goal as a White Plymouth Rock large fowl breeder, you must develop some method of line breeding. Hopefully, one that is easy to understand and follow. Among old time breeders, line breeding was referred to as in-breeding when the sire was bred to his daughters or the dam to her sons. ..... The best definition of line breeding that I ever studied is as follows: Line breeding is a method of systematic inbreeding in which an effort is made to avoid breeding too close. Line breeding, in a popular sense, means that although the birds used in breeding are related, the relationship is somewhat remote, but in inbreeding, the relationship is much closer. Line breeding, as its name implies, is the restricting of matings to either a certain line of descent, a certain family or to a limited number or breeders with a common origin, representing a similar type."
=================================
In poultry, RLB is done with flocks instead of individual creatures ( as in dogs). There is no terminal generation , as in beef. There is a lot more inbreeding done with poultry because of their wide genetic base; plethora of sex-linked genes; requirements for specific ratios in placement of color patterning; etc. . Systems for line-breeding include everything from "3 generation inbreeding and then 1 generation out-breeding"...to... the "10 Diamonds" system of 10 generation of breeding daughter to sire which is a very successful Game Fowl breeding system.
In dogs and such, it is common to cross strains to found a kennel. The tiny amount of sex-linked genes makes this possible. In poultry, we are continually counseled to by elite breeders to choose one veteran line-bred strain. Bred for many years and winning consistently at the shows. Then take this strain and make it our own, tweaking it to our artist's eye while breeding to the SOP and for the future of the breed.
In dogs, we think of single animals in each generation. In poultry, we think of multiple breedings (one cock over several different hens) or flocks in a single mating for each generation.
In both species ( dogs and poultry) , a certain amount of inbreeding is followed by line-breeding. In poultry, out-crossing is only done by extreme necessity and only by the experienced breeders.
Out-breeding is treated with the same caution by poultry breeders, as Inbreeding is by dog breeders. Cross-breeding is done by experienced poulltry persons to found new breeds or add in new colors to a breed. In poultry, it takes much longer to meld out-breeding and cross breeding into an existing strain than it does in dogs. Decades or even a lifetime, because of the plethora of sex-linked genes.
Yes, things are very different in poultry. yet the general issues remain the same. We mix bloods and traits to preserve and improve our stock. Using the same general philosophies, tweaked to the needs of our chosen species. Judge Card's chart, mentioned before in his book, is the closest I have seen to a system used in multiple species. Actually, Judge Card does not claim ownership of it in the book. He states it is a very old system which can be used with multiple species and will produce get with cookie-cutter resemblance in 10 generations.
In the 'end', it all depends on the needs of the flock; knowledge of the strain; a solid vision of excellence; knowledge how to achieve that vision. That 'end', is common to animal breeding as a whole.
Best Success,
Karen

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMatt

Very good point about the color markings. I was shocked that irregular patterns, asymmetrical markings were commonplace and not marked down in dogs and horses. (This probably explains my tendency to avoid mottled and splash birds as much as possible). I guess now that I have had time to think about it, we do have a lot more to take into account with poultry, and much stricter standards (although I'm one of those people that think we need to stick to our standards stricter than we do, I want to see scales at shows, and actual scorecards, we have a scale of points, use it.)


Scales in a show room. Again I have read over 50 years of Poultry Presses and magazines and attended a few shows and talked to buddies who have attended shows.

Scales is not there.

Let's say you have a Rhode Island Red make it even more extreme and 8 pound ckl who is 10 months old and he is a Rose Comb. He may be at a National Rhode Island Red National Meet at Ohio National and everyone there says there has never been a Rose Comb with a head like this guy almost perfect. Lets even say as for shape he is 24 inches long and 24 inches high to his top of his comb from the floor. He had width of back even to his tail, nice over all color good black markings in his wing and a even dark beetle green tail in color. You just look back and the old timers say they just don't remember seeing such a near perfect bird in a Red let alone a Rose Comb.
He is on Champion Row and is Champion American Class that is he beat all the Plymouth Rocks there and they also had 150 large fowl the best the Country could offer. Now on the side of him is a Light Brahma and he is big as you can imagine. He is so big his comb stick right up to the top of the show coop. People say this guy must be four pounds overweight he is the biggest Brahma ever shown at the Ohio National. Nice bird but just BIG.
Then you have a Dark Brown Leghorn that is Champion Mediterranean . This guy looks like he is 35 inches long just a Hybrid in size not your normal looking leghorn. He looks like he is a Dark Brown MINORCA .
After all the judging is over the Dark Brahma is picked by all as Champion Large Fowl of the show and the little near perfect Rhode Island Red the best that has ever been breed in History and one of the near perfect colored and typed R I Reds seen in 20 years is sitting there who got beat by a bird that all would agree is way to large. The owner pulls out $25. and goes to the Secretary of the Show and says I here by Protest the Judges decision and I want the Light Brahma weighed.
The secretary says ok.
They tell the judges and they say get us a scale. The Secretary of the show says we Aint Got ONE.

So the judges all look over the birds again and say our decision stands. The Light Brahma is the Champion Large Fowl of the show.

We don't have a scale of Points in Judging anymore its called Comparison Judging. There is one group who are dong this and that is the Seroma Judges. I like that.
When I score a bird its just me. I have been doing that for 20 years. I score them in my head as breeders. I want a certain number of point in the breeding pen before I use a bird. Therefore my flock I hope looks uniform in shape and color.
Many judges will take points off a bird for defects or put checks or x on a coop tag as they judge.
Well that's it for me today. Great topic. Its a tough game this breeding and the prettier they are the harder they are to breed correctly. That is why so many breeds are in the toilet in shape and color.

You got to use common sense and try to figure out what breed you want to invest a life time working on and if they are worth doing it.
There are breeders who had to cross a colored shaped bird onto a white bird of a certain strain to get the shape to return. When they hatch the chicks in the incubator they may have to cull 60 percent of all the chicks for colored down color before they even raise them. Then over five to seven years they have a all white strain say DORKINGS and people will say how did you do this.
KISS.

 

[NYREDS]

WF Black Spanish are winning the Med Class consistently at the shows out here in Cali this last season along with a Res of Show.

Walt

The regional swings inpopulation are interesting. I don't remember the last time I saw a White Faced Black Spanish in a show around here. [and the last one I do remember seeing wasn't very good]

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Can/will you elaborate, Walt? It's sometimes hard to get one's head around the notion that a chicken is more complicated or different to breed than any other creature.

I don't think I said it was harder to breed than any other creature. Most people don't know that I also have dogs. My wife is at the Cardigan Corgi Specialty all this week in Tuscon . We have had Corgi's for over 30 years and all the dogs here are champions or grand champions.......blah, blah blah....doesn't mean anything to me. I see what it takes to get a good dog and I know quite well what it takes to get a good chicken. Chickens are much more difficult.....lets just say that is my opinion based on actively pursuing both hobbies.

To make this easy to understand, just think of the color placement in most breeds of chickens. Silver laced Wyandottes comes to mind as a great example. There is no need or requirement to have every small section of a dog marked precisely like you have to have in a chicken. (this applies only to those folks that want to meet the APA SOP) That alone sets it apart and makes it much more complex. We don't have testing for hips etc because in this world that is taken care of by extinction. Even if no one culls them they are not going to reproduce after a very short time. Two years is the magic number in poultry. If you don't keep them where they are or improve them in two years you will go backwards........guaranteed!

If you don't already know how difficult it is to improve chickens I just don't know what else to say.

Walt

You've actually answered my question, Walt. Building the beast AND then there's the colour. Got it. Thank you.

I've got a great little British book, Practical inbreeding for the pedigree livestock breeder: What it is and what it can achieve by W. Watmough. He discusses "inbreeding" in many livestock species and makes it very understandable; the good, the bad, and the ugly. He compares poultry breeding to cattle, horses, dogs, sheep, etc., but distinguishes other birds (pigeons, budgies, canaries) that must be pair mated. Fascinating stuff. Lots to get one's head around.

 

[Saved]

Amen brother! The Scale of points is there for a reason and has to be revived. I judged dogs for years and the comparison judging has ruined many dogs breeds! Many breeds are now totally unrelated to the breeds "genetically speaking " that they started out to be. So many infusions of different breeds to emphasize different points That they have completely banished true type and all quality to become some person's deflated picture of something that was beautiful and functional.