Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[catdaddyfro]

I feed a 22% protein grower & add a little scratch [wheat & cracked corn] so I'm orobably right around 20% overall also. I've never tried anything higher for chickens but have found they do much better on the program I feed now than they did on 16% protein.
Another advantage is I feed the 222% protein from the day they hatch 'till the day they die. Simplifies things greatly. I don't have to stock 3 feeds as so many do & I don't have to keep track of what pen gets which feed, there's only one feed. If I'm away for the weekend at a show my wife appreciates it. She used to have to take notes about which pen gets what feed, now there's only one feed.
Wish I could say I came up with this idea on my own but I got it from Rick Hare. seems to work well for his Rosecombs.

That makes real good sense, wished I had a local feed that had all the bells and whistles in one sack but unfortunately not. I have to make up my own by mixing at least 3 different types to get a good all around breeder ration.

Going to try another approach here(for the layers only flock) after I get done with the breeding/hatching egg collecting here late spring/early summer. I have found a 26% ration( all vegetarian of course

) and I figure I can cut it with their scratch grains to bring it to a level of around 20-22%. I hate to switch up now, in midstream, I will mix and match till then.

Jeff

 

[3riverschick]

Hum...
Back in the old lit...yes, I know it is almost 100 years old... winnow out the grain and discard the obsolete... I was researching feeding chicks because I wanted to see how they fed them in "more natural" times. Over and over again, I read admonishments to raise the Sussex chicks on grains only. No potions, lotions, supplements, or fancy feeds. Just hard grains. No mention of soft grains that I remember. I don't know how to bring that knowledge forward to modern times yet. I know better than to grab old knowledge and simply transplant it to current times. That is just asking for trouble without weighing it against current breed needs and its performance in our modern, more toxic world. Still, I find it fascinating that such a wide range of experts back then are all advocatig the same things. Grains only...to... the more hard grains the better... up to... and including nothing but hard grains. So that is a place to start and then research how such advice needs to be modified to make it successful in today's poultry raising.
Best,
Karen

I wonder why the "hard" grain? Why not "soft" grain?

 

[catdaddyfro]

Hum...
Back in the old lit...yes, I know it is almost 100 years old... winnow out the grain and discard the obsolete... I was researching feeding chicks because I wanted to see how they fed them in "more natural" times. Over and over again, I read admonishments to raise the Sussex chicks on grains only. No potions, lotions, supplements, or fancy feeds. Just hard grains. No mention of soft grains that I remember. I don't know how to bring that knowledge forward to modern times yet. I know better than to grab old knowledge and simply transplant it to current times. That is just asking for trouble without weighing it against current breed needs and its performance in our modern, more toxic world. Still, I find it fascinating that such a wide range of experts back then are all advocatig the same things. Grains only...to... the more hard grains the better... up to... and including nothing but hard grains. So that is a place to start and then research how such advice needs to be modified to make it successful in today's poultry raising.
Best,
Karen

I wonder why the "hard" grain? Why not "soft" grain?

There surely has to be a supplemental ingredient(protein) there as grains alone(8%) WILL NOT/ cannot support a metabolism for proper growth. I could see this/and do see this with broodies and chicks running out and getting proteins from natural sources such as bugs/critters and what plant matters higher in proteins(clovers ect.) than grass/grains.

Wonder what they used for such?

Jeff

 

[capayvalleychick]

Karen, one thing that I've learned through research is that the old varieties of corn had much higher protein levels. Modern corn does not supply protein as it used to, it is mainly an energy feed now.

I would appreciate opinions from successful breeders on the feed that I am using. Around here, it is difficult to find feed with animal protein. I prefer fish meal as the only animal protein. I could feed some of my home raised meat, but that would end up being very expensive.
The only affordable feed that I can find with fish meal is King brand Calexico Rooster Mix. It's labeled as a feed for roosters only. I researched poultry nutrition and don't see why it wouldn't work for hens, if I supply free choice oyster shell for calcium. I've also been supplementing additional Calf Manna since they started molt. Here is the label info. The starred ingredients are in pellet form, which I figured out is King brand Fancy Feathers concentrate, which is their supplement recommended for show birds & breeders. The unstarred grains, etc. are whole grain.

PROTEIN 16%
FAT 3%
FIBER 5%
CALCIUM .4-.8%
PHOSPHORUS .4%
SODIUM .3%
LYSINE .7%
METHIONINE & CYSTINE .5%
COPPER 10 ppm
ZINC 70 ppm
SELENIUM .22 ppm
VITAMIN A 3500 IU LB
VITAMIN D 900 IU LB
VITAMIN E 20 IU LB
Metabolizable energy 1400 KCAL/LB

INGREDIENTS
Recleaned Wheat,
Recleaned Milo,
Cracked Corn,
* Dehulled Soybean Meal,
Recleaned Corn,
Recleaned Oats,
*Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles,
Popcorn,
Yellow Peas,
Sunflower Seed (Small Black Oil),
Split Green Peas,
* Calcium Carbonate,
* Monocalcium & Dica lcium Phosphate,
* Fish Meal,
* Ground Lima Beans,
* Rice Bran,
*Salt,
* Refined Menhaden Fish Oil,
* d -l Methionine,
* l - Lysine Hydrochloride,
*Dried Brewers Yeast & Dried Saccharomyces Fermentation Solubles (source of Mannan Oligosachharides),
* Direct Fed Microorganisms (Heat Stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. casei,
* Bifido bacterium thermophilum,
* Enterococcus faecium,
* Aspergillus Oryzae),
*Selenium Yeast,
*Garlic Extract,
*Anise Extract,
*Horseradish,
*Juniper Extract,
*Chinese Cassia Bark Extract,
*Ginger Extract,
*Natural Flavoring,
*Zinc - Methionine Complex,
*Manganese - Methionine Complex,
*Copper - Lysine Complex,
*Cobalt Glucoheptonate,
*Vitamin E Supplement,
*Ethoxyquin (a vitamin preservative),
*Niacin Supplement,
*Choline Chloride,
*Vitamin A Supplement,
*Vitamin D3 Supplement,
*Menadione Sodium Bisulfite,
* Calcium Pantothenate,
*Riboflavin Supplement,
* Thiamine Hydrochloride,
*Pyridoxine Hydrochloride,
* D- Biotin,
* Folic Acid,
* Vitamin B- 12 Supplement,
*Manganese Sulfate,
* Zinc Sulfate,
*Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate,
* Tribasic Copper Chloride,
*Ethylene Diamine Dihydroiodide,
* Sodium Selenite.

*((FANCY FEATHERS CONCENTRATE)) pellet form

I don't feed this to chicks. I'm now trying a very expensive chick starter that contains fish meal and is not medicated. I have not used medicated feed for many years and have not had any problems with cocci. (Knock on wood) I'm hoping that my line has natural immunity.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Depending on the breed there was a super star breeder of Cornish named Louie Strait and I once read a story about him and how he got his young Cornish to the level of big bone and then flesh and when he showed his White Large fowl were something of perfection.

He felt you had to first build a bone structure first to support the flesh. So I think he feed his young birds a lot of Oats to build the bone structure. I often wondered about this with White Rocks as I have seen some nock need or even week kneed males in shows and could not stand up very long in a cage because their legs where so small. I was always taught by the old me to have the legs or your Rocks and Reds as big as broom sticks.

Any way that is what Louie did and I don't know if this depends on the breed such as Orpingtons or not.

As far as protein I often wonder if these birds can absorb the protein in their guts or do they poop out five percent of it and you are wising your money.

Next if you free range your bird think of the protein they get from insects. My large fowl free ranged years ago and I had no problem with feather development or bone structure using this method.

In humans they felt about 25 years ago based on a interview with Boyer Coe of Louisiana a body builder that you could spend $50 a day eating protein and bulk up 50 pounds as a body builder but when you went on your diet to get ready for a contest you may be lucky to keep five pounds of that muscle. He felt in order to chisel a great body you could only gain five or six pound per year and it was a five to seven year process to get that great body that they work so hard to get. In fact he felt he could build a great body with just a few percent more percent protein per year and not get up to say 250 and compete at 195 pounds. They even sold a enzyme called Papaya tablets to help digest this protein back then as they said your body can not digest all this protein powder milk shakes.

I often wonder if they have done studies on chickens or not on what they can digest.

For me I just give mine a Game Bird diet like you would a quail or a pheasant. It is 20 percent the chick feed is medicated then I convert over to pure game birds pellets. I at least know the grains in my feed are the best or you could never get a good coat of feathers on quail so they can be used in game preserves for hunting.

Each breed will act or feather or grow differently. I have studied Cockers and their mixture but have not found a mill that I could buy their kind of food. Its whole grains. FRM does make a bag it must cost $20 to $22 a bag it was mixed for a world class Cocker and a old mixture in his family for over 60 years. I may try some of it this year on some males to see if there is any difference on feather and luster on my ckls. and the old males I keep for breeding next year.

 

[qball53]

Most people in the USA breed from young birds. When it comes to getting birds from someone like Urch he is trying to do just as the hatcheries do and that is hatch chicks to supply the demand. He most likely don't have a bunch of low producing hens laying around as breeders.

We just received 26 HRIR from Matt Ulrich. They sure look good to my untrained eye ! I hope you are not saying here that they are not much better than hatchery birds. BTW Bob you are the one who turned us to Matt, so I think I may not be understanding your message here. Thanks Mike / Diana

 

[MagicChicken]

Questions for black bird breeders and judges:

Purple barring is a defect in black feathers. If you have a purple-barred bird that is superior in all other aspects, is there something you can pair it with to eventually get rid of the purple barring? If so, what do you look for to offset the purple bars when "don't breed purple birds" is not an option? (Assuming you can find one bird with no purple.)

If a black bird has purple barring all over, how much of a deduction is it? The standard says 1/2-2 points per section. Not sure how many sections on an all-black bird, or how the points are weighted when the entire bird is black.

Sarah

 

[Wynette]

On the protein discussion - Barb and I have been chatting about this offline for a few days (and have done so on many previous occasions as well). I know that Barb follows my "theory" pretty much, feeding about 21 - 22% when mixed (I use a pellet called layer/breedert made by Buckeye - the protein is a hair higher, at 18%, and then mix it with gamebird feed which has a higher protein percentage).

Bob, your post was a bit of a lighbulb moment for me. Barb ranges her flocks, I do not. Mine are all in very large pens, fenced, cross fenced, fenced over the top for predator control, etc. MY birds would likely have a slightly lower need for protein since they are more sedentary than Barb's flock (for example), I would think. So many things go into your decision on how much protein to feed.

I also mentioned to Barb that I have a breeding trio in a breeder cage; I had been feeding them the same way as the rest of my breeder flocks, at 21-22% protein. THen I ran out of my gamebird feed, and just wasn't in that neck o' the woods to pick it up for a few weeks. After about 10 days on the 18% breeder/layer feed, the two hens began laying every day; prior to this, they'd laid maybe 4-5 eggs each per week, now, they are laying 6. Coincidence? Maybe...but maybe not.

I'm going to take them back up the higher percentage and closley monitor egg lay and see if it drops off again.

 

[bnjrob]

I can take a guess at this and others can add in their two cents and correct me if I am wrong....

My guess is that grinding grains starts the oxidation process, which reduces their nutritional value. This is the reason I buy only whole corn and other whole grains to throw out as a treat, rather than cracked corn and "scratch". Since manufactured feed is all ground, I would guess that it is lower in nutritional value overall, as opposed to the whole grains (though I agree with the above poster about whole grains being lower in protein than manufactured feed, which has additional protein added in). Additionally, I would guess that the reason the gizzards etc were larger is because the birds have to work a little harder to digest the whole grains vs. the processed (the difference between eating carrot sticks, or over-boiled carrots), so over time, the gizzard grows larger and stronger because it is getting a better workout.

That makes sense.

I have seen the difference in quality of food when we switched our dogs and cats over to a different brand. While they were on the original brand, they were healthy and looked good, but after switching to a different brand, their coats became noticeably thicker and more lush when running your hand through it.

And now I have more questions and ideas as I search for nutritional ways to improve our chickens....

 

[cgmccary]

We just received 26 HRIR from Matt Ulrich. They sure look good to my untrained eye ! I hope you are not saying here that they are not much better than hatchery birds. BTW Bob you are the one who turned us to Matt, so I think I may not be understanding your message here. Thanks Mike / Diana

Matt Ulrich is a great breeder of HRIR who lives in South Alabama & a young man. Matt selects his breeder birds carefully and does not flock breed.

Duane URCH is an long time breeder / master exhibitor from Minnesota who has kept and maintained many breeds for many years (since the 1950s or longer) (and makes his living selling large quantities of birds as Urch Turnland Poultry) -- SO TWO DIFFERENT people altogether.