Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[fowlman01]

Bob,

Encouraging young birds to use their wings is something I believe in too. My brooder is a large stock tank in my greenhouse about 6 feet in diameter.I have a large branch in it. The young Orps love to fly up, and roost. With a breed as heavy as Orps , you have to develop those pectoral muscles early, before they get too heavy to really fly. It's a shame to see so many Orps with very loose wing carriage when it can be prevented.

Making the birds fly always helps the wing carriage, but a lot of times it is more than a lack of exercise. Sometimes it is a breeding problem. I believe that is the case with the Orps I see at shows with poor wing carriage.

Walt

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: I wrote that late last night could not sleep. I should add I put them in two by two conditioning coops and then look at them latter I do this mainly befor I show them to get them tucked up good I kept four leghorn males and they had been in those coops for four months. I saw two whose wings are tucked up better than the other two and will use them as breeders. They are equal in head points and lift in back so they are the future of the line.

Now can I get a few chicks out of the champion hen this year she is four years old. I am at about the end with this line only one female left.

In regards to getting rid of extra birds. I had a hard time when I had large fowl no one wanted show chickens the folks from down below with the green cards liked them so I would bring a bunch over to a guys house and he made a few bucks and I got about six for each of them.

With my bantams when they are young I just get rid of them early and they go to chicken heaven.

I know a breeder who kills his culls weekly that are worth $50 to $100 each. His culls are better than most peoples best bantam rocks. He does not want to fool with the public, other exhibitors ect. it just kills me but he says he does not have time to focus on this issue and he just puts two or three in the back of his car goes to the show and stomps the crap out of the other exhibitor's and gets on champion row. So I guess if that works for him who am I to judge.
I have a partner like this with Red Bantams. He tells me he took the meat cleaver two ckls yesterday. Kills me but surprise he is sending me six birds to breed to my birds this November so at least I am getting the cream of the crop.

For you who can get rid of your extra stock I am happy for you. Others we got deep freezes and I guess that is good at least we can eat them.


going to make a order for this guy and other stuff today.
should be a good punch.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I don't want to hijack a thread about heritage breeds to talk to extensively about egg color, shape and size ... but I do consider egg color, shape and size to be an interesting topic in itself and also an important topic in various ways. Inasmuch as chickens produce eggs, and people eat eggs, and people buy eggs, making "attractive" eggs is a big part of keeping chickens. Some people consider egg color as important as what feeds the chicken that lays the egg. Not many egg customers think about the breed of the chicken making the egg, but a lot care a great deal about the egg color.

Do the different egg color effect the taste of the eggs or is it just the issue the buyer wants a brown green blue or what ever egg?

I see many people chose a breed by the egg color vs the rarity of the poor breed that needs a mom or dad to adopt them.

Of course science tells us the egg color is only shell-deep and what is inside the egg is identical to all other eggs (accounting for feed, etc.)

But ...

I've had customers insist eggs of a certain color do taste better, and insist eggs of a certain color are more nutritious, or eggs of a certain color are higher quality. I've had people request full dozens of their preferred color, or to exclude a particular color, or report back to me that members of their households will go through the eggs when they arrive and pull out a specific color of egg to eat themselves.

Don't confuse Ameraucanas and Easter Eggers. Easter Eggers are mongrels that happen to lay blue eggs. They're no more stable than a mongrel that lays white eggs. An Ameraucana is a a breed. I would not compare a white egg laying mongrel to an Ancona or Minorca just because of egg color. The same is true for Ameraucanas.

Any breed, again, any breed can go mean. Temperament is a matter of selection, like most things. Ameraucanas are want to have a respectable amount of energy, like all birds bred first for egg production, but poor temperament is poor breeding.

I don't. That's why I call the feed store Ameraucanas Easter Eggers. But in my current set-up, having a rooster who is always looking for a fight is not useful. Until I'm set up with segregated breeding colonies, I need my roosters to get along.

As I told my partner, I think any Ameraucanas we get from the feed store are likely to be from the same source and have the same personality profile, so rather than try again with those I'd prefer to start with "real" birds from a breeder.

I'd like to know more about breeding for personality ... and what weight someone would give that compared to body shape and color.

Great post.

EE and Ameaucanas are like production reds and Rhode Island Reds they think they got the same thing.

What a fad it has turned into it seems but has nothing to do to help preserve rare breeds of endangered in need of help chickens.

That is why it takes one in 500 people on this web site to buckle down and get serous about a breed. We have had great success doing this after we re educate this one person. Today we have a good number who are subscribing to the theory of breeding and sharing their birds with others. So simple if they would just treat them like chickens and not humans. That is why so many older breeders get frustrated with beginners with their off the wall ideas of razing the chickens and breeding them. They think they are like humans and they have special feelings.

I hope I'm not being too frustrating. I don't think I'm confusing the idea of breeding Delawares with the idea of "keeping" hatchery chickens. I've been enjoying "keeping" hatchery chickens enough I think I'm ready to upgrade to breeding Delawares. But I do depend on people who know how to do it to point me in the right direction. There is a LOT of information out there, and a lot of it is pretty inaccurate, and I was advised that people in this thread know what they are doing and are great at helping new people learn.

As to the discussion on egg color, I think it is a woman thing. I think I can speak for many women here in that we just appreciate the beauty in a basket of beautiful multi-colored eggs sitting on the kitchen counter or in a carton. It has nothing to do with the quality of the eggs' contents (although that is important too, love the rich orange yolks!) but just in the variety of colors represented. I have a black wire basket and when it is filled with dark brown, blue, green, light brown, and white eggs, it is a joy to behold.

Yeah, eggs do trigger whatever "pretty" genes I've got. And people like Martha Stewart and Oprah with their pretty colored eggs probably help other people express their femininity with special eggs. Eggs do have that whole birth metaphor thing going for them ... and "feathering your nest," and a whole lot of other meaningful female things.

I always enjoy collecting the eggs!! Each one is a work of art.

Must be why Ihave Am, EE and marans. Need a white layer though.

Oh, you have to get a white layer. Mixing white eggs into your basket really brings out all the rest of the colors!

I do see eggs as art. And the idea of "painting" eggs by breeding birds seems like a super cool art project to me. The people who produce olive eggs seem to be having so much fun and expressing themselves in a cool medium. I don't confuse this with breed preservation, etc., but it is another way of appreciating chickens, which can't be so horrible, can it?

Furthermore, the egg customers bring their own important ideas about egg color to the carton ...

For egg color I've noticed there are both aversions and attractions, and both are equally important when you are asking someone to put something in their mouth and swallow and hope for the best when it hits their stomach and digestive tract. Eggs are food so some of those aversions and attractions involve rather strong feelings. In terms of producing eggs it is useful to consider these feelings (among other things!) when selecting a breed to work with.

I've met people, both male and female, who insist either white or brown eggs are a superior quality product. They wouldn't pay "extra" or make an extra effort for the "wrong" color eggs when they can get the "right" ones at the grocery store for pennies per dozen. They can give me a lot of "proof" as to why their preference is valid. I do try to share the science, but I don't push it too hard. Even I, knowing there is no difference in eggs of different colors, "think" or "feel" that the super dark eggs must be more nutrient dense, the white eggs must be more cleansing and fluffier, and the brown eggs must be fresher with brighter yolks, and the blue/green eggs are the icing on the cake (meaning that their best use is to decorate the cartons). Ha!

I've met people who have never seen a green/blue chicken egg. These people are either really turned off by the thought of a new color of egg, or they are suspicious, or they are curious, or they are excited. I've heard the "Green Eggs and Ham!" thing so many times, and some people look forward to bringing Dr. Suess to life so plan an "event" around eating them the first time, even adults. A lot of people see the green/blue colors as signs of rot or mildew or mold and you can see them making themselves ill just thinking about it. I have one customer who gets very ill at the thought of duck eggs, so if she sees a very large chicken egg she gets excited in a bad way, and she was a bit suspicious of the green eggs at first. I promise her I would never slip her a duck egg as a joke or to prove a point, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who would, so she has every right to worry. I need to crack a duck egg for her so she learns to spot the differences herself.

Kids can be really into the egg color, and this can be great for moms getting kids to eat (or a nightmare if they run out of the right color of egg!). That reminds me: one of my best egg customers is a 2 year old boy who insists on only eating eggs from our chickens, and just the brown ones. This is how he chooses to use his limited vocabulary, and he is extremely articulate about why he knows our eggs are the best.

Then there is the whole "hunter/gatherer" thing, where for some people consider food from a farmer as a trophy, so having eggs that look different from grocery store eggs makes people feel more satisfied with their purchase. If a customer gets a carton where every egg is a different color, shape, and size, then they can get the trophy buzz x 12 with each dozen they buy. But there are also people who would think "irregular" eggs should be sold at a discount, or feed to the homeless, or throw away. As people do have to go out of their way to get our eggs, they should feel especially good about what's in the carton.

There is also an aspect of "food tourism" or "food adventure." A city person can dine out for a month on the story of buying blue/green/chocolate/white/pinkish eggs from a colorful farmer -- even better if they get them on the farm or while on vacation. At least it can work that way in the USA where few people visit farms or farmers' markets. Even I like to discuss special egg events, like having turkey for breakfast on Thanksgiving, or making duck egg pancakes.

I could probably write even more about aversions/attractions of egg color, shape and size, but I do see it is a very different subject to breeding chickens except for the breeds where egg color is a factor in SOP. I can live without a rainbow egg basket where every egg is indeed a unique work of art, but if there is a way that I can work seriously on a breed or breeds and also have some colorful eggs to find in the nesting boxes and play with in my kitchen, that would be even better.

If necessary, I could sign a pledge to never discuss egg color in this thread again ... even though I haven't typed a word here about speckled eggs.

I'm here to learn about how to do my best with the Delaware project!

Anyone had a chance to review my previous questions and construct some specific advise?

 

[3riverschick]

Hi Leslie,
Wow, what a novella! I really enjoyed it, thanks for sharing.
Definitely getting an ovation for this work!
Uh, I forgot the Delaware questions, could you repost them?
Thanks,
Karen

 

[Robert Blosl]

Many beginners again pick a breed like Delaware's that are being reinvented by Kathy of Mo and her few new people who have her line. Its in its infancy to rebuild. The ones that many people have are not much improved than feed store Delaware's but a few strains are not bad. Tough breed to try to improve for beginners. Take New Hampshire's man they are easy to get and raise they do it all. Many of the other breeds that are in need of help like the buff rocks should not be that hard or the Columbian Rocks ect.

However, it seems the novelty or the fad of the breed or the pretty panting of the breed gets them hooked then when they ask us to locate them the stock its near impossible to locate what they want do to the lack of breeders. Plenty of them in the Hatchers but that's not what they will want after they get them raised up and look at them.

 

[Pathfinders]

Bob,

Encouraging young birds to use their wings is something I believe in too. My brooder is a large stock tank in my greenhouse about 6 feet in diameter.I have a large branch in it. The young Orps love to fly up, and roost. With a breed as heavy as Orps , you have to develop those pectoral muscles early, before they get too heavy to really fly. It's a shame to see so many Orps with very loose wing carriage when it can be prevented.

Wow. That just answered a question of mine. I have seen certain birds of certain heavy breeds who struggle with low wing carriage. Is this why? Because they aren't encouraged to roost/fly? How interesting, how enlightening. Thanks for that ! I love this thread...

 

[Arielle]

LEslie, check out chicken university-- you may see other birds that tickle your fancy beyond the Dels. Oh and I have OE's. And speckles!

THis is my year of transistion. And the transition is going slower than I planned. I need to have another look at my freezer and make room for chicken by tossing the bread out to the birds. ANd keep the canner running , too. THe flock is getting smaller. ANd that will mean room for the next stage.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Many beginners again pick a breed like Delaware's that are being reinvented by Kathy of Mo and her few new people who have her line. Its in its infancy to rebuild. The ones that many people have are not much improved than feed store Delaware's but a few strains are not bad. Tough breed to try to improve for beginners. Take New Hampshire's man they are easy to get and raise they do it all. Many of the other breeds that are in need of help like the buff rocks should not be that hard or the Columbian Rocks ect.

However, it seems the novelty or the fad of the breed or the pretty panting of the breed gets them hooked then when they ask us to locate them the stock its near impossible to locate what they want do to the lack of breeders. Plenty of them in the Hatchers but that's not what they will want after they get them raised up and look at them.

I didn't even know Delawares were a fad. And I'm pretty much done with feed-store hatchery birds ... unless I can't survive the initiation phase of breaking into the Real Breeders Club.

I asked a couple of places what breed would be good for "real" bread Dual Purpose ...On the first hand I already sell eggs and feel responsible to my customers to keep providing eggs, and on the second hand some of those customers also want meat and though I've done a small batch of Cornish Cross (10 birds, which were super easy to raise and efficient and TOTALLY delicious! but SAD), I don't really feel good about contributing to the big-business factory-farming frankenchicken aspect of those, but on the third hand I really do want meat for my own freezer and on the fourth hand if I'm going to have a self-sustaining laying flock I'm going to have cockerels to get rid of and they might as well be meaty -- we have a farm, and the cockerels in the grow-out coop sure get a lot of attention from the crew, but the crew seems insulted by the scrawny ones!

I have been hoping to be able to eventually contribute to the conservation/restoration/preservation of a breed of chicken, and when recently I was pondering how to make better use of my broodies and pass useful stuff into all my various hands I thought "maybe now is the time to start looking at heritage breeds" so I asked around and was told Delawares is a breed in need of help that might be able to help me in my egg/meat goals along the way. That was a few weeks ago.

During my subsequent research I found a local person listed at the Delaware Breeders website, and checking her own website I see she is running a farm/business very much like I had imagined I might do, eggs and meat from the same self-sustaining flock, and she lives very near me -- she has pullets for sale right now, and I'm considering if I want to get some to mix in with my flock even though they probably wouldn't be part of the breeding project as she seems to be breeding more for production than breed advancement -- the fact that she's making that work is very encouraging. She processes her cockerels at about 16 weeks, which isn't a bad time investment for the male culls.

Someone a little further away has some of Kathy's birds, which are considered to be more improved, and is very serious about improving the breed further and excited that I might be willing to work with her so is hoping to be able to share a trio with me this fall.

I really just fell into the idea of Delawares ...

Is there a "better" choice?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

LEslie, check out chicken university-- you may see other birds that tickle your fancy beyond the Dels. Oh and I have OE's. And speckles!

THis is my year of transistion. And the transition is going slower than I planned. I need to have another look at my freezer and make room for chicken by tossing the bread out to the birds. ANd keep the canner running , too. THe flock is getting smaller. ANd that will mean room for the next stage.

I definitely need a really big chest freezer. I have 25 HUGE BBB turkeys I want to process to make way for "real" chickens, and I'm having trouble drumming up enthusiasm for the turkeys in the "off season" even though people were begging me for more after Thanksgiving last year. I posted a lot of info about how much I enjoyed the one I just cooked, how easy it was, how many different things I made from him, and still zipo interest. Sigh. Maybe now that school is started and moms are packing lunches ... I think people are put off by the price of real food, and the turkeys have eaten a lot up to this point, and the special turkey starter is particularly expensive. And every single day they eat more ... and get bigger.

You are torturing me with the egg color thing.

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

I didn't even know Delawares were a fad. And I'm pretty much done with feed-store hatchery birds ... unless I can't survive the initiation phase of breaking into the Real Breeders Club.

I asked a couple of places what breed would be good for "real" bread Dual Purpose ...On the first hand I already sell eggs and feel responsible to my customers to keep providing eggs, and on the second hand some of those customers also want meat and though I've done a small batch of Cornish Cross (10 birds, which were super easy to raise and efficient and TOTALLY delicious! but SAD), I don't really feel good about contributing to the big-business factory-farming frankenchicken aspect of those, but on the third hand I really do want meat for my own freezer and on the fourth hand if I'm going to have a self-sustaining laying flock I'm going to have cockerels to get rid of and they might as well be meaty -- we have a farm, and the cockerels in the grow-out coop sure get a lot of attention from the crew, but the crew seems insulted by the scrawny ones!

I have been hoping to be able to eventually contribute to the conservation/restoration/preservation of a breed of chicken, and when recently I was pondering how to make better use of my broodies and pass useful stuff into all my various hands I thought "maybe now is the time to start looking at heritage breeds" so I asked around and was told Delawares is a breed in need of help that might be able to help me in my egg/meat goals along the way. That was a few weeks ago.

During my subsequent research I found a local person listed at the Delaware Breeders website, and checking her own website I see she is running a farm/business very much like I had imagined I might do, eggs and meat from the same self-sustaining flock, and she lives very near me -- she has pullets for sale right now, and I'm considering if I want to get some to mix in with my flock even though they probably wouldn't be part of the breeding project as she seems to be breeding more for production than breed advancement -- the fact that she's making that work is very encouraging. She processes her cockerels at about 16 weeks, which isn't a bad time investment for the male culls.

Someone a little further away has some of Kathy's birds, which are considered to be more improved, and is very serious about improving the breed further and excited that I might be willing to work with her so is hoping to be able to share a trio with me this fall.

I really just fell into the idea of Delawares ...

Is there a "better" choice?

LeslieD

You can help me out......I raise LF Plymouth Rocks in the Columbian pattern.....similar to the Delaware in coloring, without the barring on the males

VERY rare variety in the states and in need of MUCH help in the US with breeders from west coast to east coast

Here are a couple pix