Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[greathorse]

Quote:
I dont know enough to help you very much, but I can tell you I have read enough from the experts to know you will get in a lot more trouble with out crossing than you will if you stay to close genetics. Read and ask the wise one's and don't assume that close breeding is going to hurt you.

I have given some birds to close friends that I trust will continue with the genetics that I have and if I need to loosen up a bit I can go get something from them that is same line or strain but not daughter, brother etc.


Keep asking dont assume is my only advise

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
please

 

[TACEYPERKINS]

JIMSFARMSTAND-
Thank you so much.

I really think I have a good start on my Javas, I just want to know where to go from here. I am kinda in the same boat as Scott. I don't want to screw up what I have so far. Thank you~ Tacey

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
This is the thing I don't understand .... about shows ..... I am sure all shows are not created equally, so to speak. Help me out here. Are State Fairs good examples of APA SOP birds? I thought (but do not know) that county fairs and state fairs were for kids with any kind of birds. Are some APA sanctioned and some are not? And, what does APA sanctioned mean, anyway? Sorry for the stupid questions. I am still trying to learn about these shows.

 

[Mrs. Turbo]

Quote:
This is the thing I don't understand .... about shows ..... I am sure all shows are not created equally, so to speak. Help me out here. Are State Fairs good examples of APA SOP birds? I thought (but do not know) that county fairs and state fairs were for kids with any kind of birds. Are some APA sanctioned and some are not? And, what does APA sanctioned mean, anyway? Sorry for the stupid questions. I am still trying to learn about these shows.

our KY state fair has a lot of the regular poultry show people that attend and we use the licensed judges. There are some hatchery birds enterd, but not many. Some state fairs do things the same way we do and some don't. County fairs I think are more or less 4-H birds and backyard birds. So I guess it depends on where you go, but your best bet is to attend a real show until you know what you are looking at.

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/

 

[jenjscott]

In the book the Japanese Bantam by Terry Wible he describes line breeding. There is a chart and system developed by the National Bantam Association (now the ABA) from an old "The Game Book" from 1976, page 46 by Douglas Barber that shows modified line breeding. The whole idea is you take those "families" and do this line breeding for a number of years, keeping those two families separate. If you start to show signs of infertility, etc, then you bing in from the other "family", that is by now many generations removed from them, yet not an out cross. The crossing is kind of hard to follow, but you make your original breeding, then breed father to daughter, those offspring you breed back to the grandparents(the original rooster and hen) Those offsping wil be like cousins and half siblings and and can be crossed (this is where I question it) Then it really gets complicated. but after the sixth year you are breeding offspring to aunts and uncles. If you are interested pm me and I will send you a copy of the chart. If anyone can figure out permission to reproduce on line, can do that too. At the end of nine years, you start all over again.

In this example, you are breeding back to the grandparents, so you would keep your originals for at least the 3rd year.
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[Robert Blosl]

If I was starting with a new breed like barred rocks which I will this spring I will raise up to say ten to fifteen chicks and the male that I think looks the closest to body type and style to a Plymouth Rock.
I would also keep the second best male as a backup. If I got a female that has fantastic type I would then mate her to this male. I would then keep one or two females as backups.
If I used this male on both females I would toe punched chick to the mother for future breeders the next year. My goal for year one from say two dozen eggs is to watch the chicks as they mature and go with the ones that get out in front or mature the fastest. You are breeding for genes and trying to find the lost genes if they are in the family or strain. In the case of the current Columbian Large Fowl their type and color is at a level of about say 92 points out of a hundred if that and they have to be breed up and if you don’t have the genes to breed up you got to cross them to another strain of Columbian Rocks. Many think you can cross them on a good white rock but I tried it with Columbians last year and we got nothing but barred rocks not one Columbian. I crossed a white rock onto a good barred rock male one year and got fantastic rock type with dirty coo coo color. Had to scrap this program as there was no way to improve them.

In the case of your Java’s pictured here I would not add any other strain. You got one heck of a strain. You breed them up and improve them and if you need new blood you go back to the origin you got them from. In the case of the Columbians you just can’t go back to improve them as there are so few people breeding them. But in a nut shell breeding the best daughters back to their sire each year is the fastest way to build and improve a gene pool. I have improved my Rhode Island Red bantam females in three years by breeding the best type flat back females to their sire. The male is in the picture by my name. This year I am going to breed his best two daughters to his father. Then I will mate those females back to this male until he is no longer fertile. I am trying to fix the gens of this type or brick shape in my female line. My hope is that I will have a strain of Red Bantams that has brick shape and color like the large fowl. I am not afraid of inbreeding because my Red Bantams have large fowl blood in them and I have two others who are partners with me in this new strain I can go back to in five years if I need fresh blood.

Line Breeding as you are talking about with Terry Wibble’s book I think is the I K Feltch line breeding method. It is a chart. I have always tried to think like this but I have not known anyone who has a history using this method. I get dizzy just trying to figure out what or where I am at the four and five year mark. I have a method that I wrote about called Rotational Line breeding which is a great tool in breeding. I won’t go into it right now as I am to tired but will send you to the link where I have it on my web site.

http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id35.html

I will most likely go with this system in two or three years with the Heritage Barred Rocks that I am getting this spring. Simple system one male one female and rotate the males to the coop to your right each year. Three families can go about 12 to 15 years. I will also go to this in three years with the Red Bantams and the Call ducks. With the ducks it’s been inbreeding to shorten the body length and make a thicker neck and wider bill. I hope I don’t have to help these guys out of their shells when they hatch as I am breeding them to a look like standard but their little legs and short bills are so short they can’t get out of their shells very well. With my Red Bantams I breed them to explode out of their shells hopefully with in a hour from piping. I breed them to do this as this is part of vigor to the highest degree. Again the bug a boo in breeding is going in the opposite direction of Vigor.

Don’t breed from a bird that a hawk or owl could catch they can’t be stupid. You need to breed them to be alert and have that fit of The Fittest Principle genes all over them. Don’t forget the egg laying factors as that was the secret for me breeding large fowl to produce ideal type. This should be enough to digest for tonight. It’s a science and a Art to breed. It’s a learning experience every day and every year. Hope this helps. bob

 

[TACEYPERKINS]

Ok here is my Delaware roos. I have 2, From 2 different hatches, same foundation stock. I liked qualities from both. I was thinking of breeding 2 lines then cross breeding the offspring to try to cross the traits that I like in each. what do you think? 1st roo has no band, second has a pink band. Also, it was raining here so everyones tails are slightly pointing down. I can post more pictures later if these are too hard to evaluate.By the way, why do Dellaware turn yellow? Is it a genetic thing or nutrional thing?

IST roo- He is a bit smaller then roo #2, and has a decent body.Good chest and good temperment. Not as yellow as roo#2 is.

2nd roo- I think he has absolutly no brest/chest. But he is huge otherwise. in height and width. Good temperment too.

Please tell me exactly what you think, pick them apart. I won't be offended. I just need a little guildance. Thank you~ Tacey

 

[joletabey]

Tacey, I think the first roo is better in that he has a better body shape - roo #2 is pretty shallow, which you have already noted. In the second picture of roo2, his tail looks too upright also - roo#1 looks to have a comb that follows his head, which is good. They both have good wing set - they are both black and white, although maybe a little light. What do your hens look like? If you have really good bodied hens, I would use roo 1- but that is just me, and you need some more knowledgeable opinions here! I could be missing something really obvious.

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
I dont know enough to help you very much, but I can tell you I have read enough from the experts to know you will get in a lot more trouble with out crossing than you will if you stay to close genetics. Read and ask the wise one's and don't assume that close breeding is going to hurt you.

I have given some birds to close friends that I trust will continue with the genetics that I have and if I need to loosen up a bit I can go get something from them that is same line or strain but not daughter, brother etc.


Keep asking dont assume is my only advise

All I can tell you is I've line-bred a strain of Rhode Island Red Bantams for going on 25 years. The females still lay well & my fertility is about 95 % with hatchability being nearly that high. I follow a simple fathrt/daughter, mother/son breeding plan with occassional crosses between the two "families" I keep within this strain.
I have done a limited outcross with some birds from Bob Blosl but that line is kept seperate & I haven't needed to incorporate them to improve fertility yet.