Kudos to all of you for sharing what you do find to be true...
Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread
- Thread starter Robert Blosl
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I dont know where you heard this from or read some where. I show my breeders if they are show able. Sometimes culls mated to culls make great show birds. Its called compensating matings.
In regards to the order of egg laying, type color meat vigor. It is not a big deal. Remember, I raise advanced large fowl American class birds. They are not barn yard type chickens that are coming up from the dark ages. They came from old strains in Calif over 50 years old and a Rhode Island Red lady from Georgia 100 years ago. Many of you want breeds that are so breed down that it will take ten to twenty years to get up to the level that I am talking about. Many want colors and breeds of chickens I have never seen or know who has them. If they are rare its because they are to hard to breed and no buddy wants to fool with them. It seems at least 80 percent of the people that contact me what these kind of endangered large fowl. So many better breeds need help to keep them going. But it goes back to those pictures in the catalogs that turns people on to these breeds.
In regards to what a male does or a female does one Colombian Plymouth Rock breeder wrote in his article in one of my early issues of the Plymouth Rock Monthly the male has more influence for color and the female has more for shape or type. I have always felt in Reds its a 50 50 issue. Some males or females can stamp their traits better than others. High prepotency is the key. In regards to chart breeding I have never interviewed master breeders who have used them or read of the great ones that wrote about how they did it. Its interesting conversation. I still like my two methods and I am going to use them.
Now why dont people show thier breeders. Some fear they will be stolen. Some fear they will get sick by the scrubs that are shown at the shows that are across from thier good birds. Some breeders are not show birds they have major faults but mated to the right females will produce good birds. I show my breeders in one day shows. I hate fairs its so stress full on the birds for a whole week. One friend shows his birds then sells them and does not bring them home. I really dont enjoy showing some judges really get under my skin as they will place birds with cull type over birds that have the correct type. I ask myself why? It seems many judges judge on what the majorty of the birds look like. If they look like plymouth rocks in type and thier are 80 in the show the twenty that look like Rhode Island Reds dont win. Cost a lot of money to go to a show. I dont need a judge to tell me what birds I need for my breeding pens. However, I would enjoy a judge like Bill or Walt to handle my birds. These judges know there stuff. I am cranky, I have two teeth that need to be pulled and if I sound like a snob forgive me. I will be better next week.
I got a very disturbing email from a father of two children the other day who wants to break into showing his chickens but the folks that he goes to the shows with are not very eager for him and his girls to show or will not help them. I had to step back a few feet and think about this. It is hard and I think the people who show have had so many people come in who pooped out in two to three years and give up they have lost interest in helping them.
You wonder what could be done to help these souls. I know the members of the Rhode Island Red Club and the Plymouth Rock Fanciers club would help these people. Just a thought.
I think some times we need to try to help you beginners on just the basics and just hope you hang in there long enough to learn how to get there and if you show you have to understand there are people out there with 20 to 30 years of experience who will beat you. You got to learn how to be like them.
Just ask yourself how many people do you know that has been in this hobby for ten to twenty years. I can count them on one hand. Not many. Of all the people I have tried to help or people be for me we are lucky to have one or two in 20 years to make it.
We just got to keep on trying. I hope to meet a fellow tonight at my home who I think has the right stuff. I will do everything I can to help him be a success.
bob
In regards to the order of egg laying, type color meat vigor. It is not a big deal. Remember, I raise advanced large fowl American class birds. They are not barn yard type chickens that are coming up from the dark ages. They came from old strains in Calif over 50 years old and a Rhode Island Red lady from Georgia 100 years ago. Many of you want breeds that are so breed down that it will take ten to twenty years to get up to the level that I am talking about. Many want colors and breeds of chickens I have never seen or know who has them. If they are rare its because they are to hard to breed and no buddy wants to fool with them. It seems at least 80 percent of the people that contact me what these kind of endangered large fowl. So many better breeds need help to keep them going. But it goes back to those pictures in the catalogs that turns people on to these breeds.
In regards to what a male does or a female does one Colombian Plymouth Rock breeder wrote in his article in one of my early issues of the Plymouth Rock Monthly the male has more influence for color and the female has more for shape or type. I have always felt in Reds its a 50 50 issue. Some males or females can stamp their traits better than others. High prepotency is the key. In regards to chart breeding I have never interviewed master breeders who have used them or read of the great ones that wrote about how they did it. Its interesting conversation. I still like my two methods and I am going to use them.
Now why dont people show thier breeders. Some fear they will be stolen. Some fear they will get sick by the scrubs that are shown at the shows that are across from thier good birds. Some breeders are not show birds they have major faults but mated to the right females will produce good birds. I show my breeders in one day shows. I hate fairs its so stress full on the birds for a whole week. One friend shows his birds then sells them and does not bring them home. I really dont enjoy showing some judges really get under my skin as they will place birds with cull type over birds that have the correct type. I ask myself why? It seems many judges judge on what the majorty of the birds look like. If they look like plymouth rocks in type and thier are 80 in the show the twenty that look like Rhode Island Reds dont win. Cost a lot of money to go to a show. I dont need a judge to tell me what birds I need for my breeding pens. However, I would enjoy a judge like Bill or Walt to handle my birds. These judges know there stuff. I am cranky, I have two teeth that need to be pulled and if I sound like a snob forgive me. I will be better next week.
I got a very disturbing email from a father of two children the other day who wants to break into showing his chickens but the folks that he goes to the shows with are not very eager for him and his girls to show or will not help them. I had to step back a few feet and think about this. It is hard and I think the people who show have had so many people come in who pooped out in two to three years and give up they have lost interest in helping them.
You wonder what could be done to help these souls. I know the members of the Rhode Island Red Club and the Plymouth Rock Fanciers club would help these people. Just a thought.
I think some times we need to try to help you beginners on just the basics and just hope you hang in there long enough to learn how to get there and if you show you have to understand there are people out there with 20 to 30 years of experience who will beat you. You got to learn how to be like them.
Just ask yourself how many people do you know that has been in this hobby for ten to twenty years. I can count them on one hand. Not many. Of all the people I have tried to help or people be for me we are lucky to have one or two in 20 years to make it.
We just got to keep on trying. I hope to meet a fellow tonight at my home who I think has the right stuff. I will do everything I can to help him be a success.
bob
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My comments above last night may be very harsh and unfair but I think I have come to a point of truth with my self and helping beginners who want to get started in Standard Breed Fowl.
I am going to have to take some time off and slow down a bit as it is taking a toll on my soul. I was thinking about all the history I read going back about 100 years on Rhode Island Reds and the great strains that were once around. For example pure Harold Tompkins's strain? This man sold thousands of chicks and eggs to people be for he died in 1954. Who has descendants????
The Mrs. Donald Donaldson's line that she had what happen to all of her REDS??. I knew one man in Washington State that had her line and after he died the went up in smoke. She did sell birds be for her death to Mr. Reese he sold at least 1,000 chicks or adult birds and only two people left who have her line and maybe five people who have had their lines for the past three years. What happen to all those other people. The quite raising chickens? Many bought them and raised them to show and won with her birds but I guess they just could not breed thier own and it was easyer to buy fifty chicks from her each year and be a big winner that way. Problem is today we dont have people like her anymore who can supply champion chicks in a box.
It seems what we have left today is just a few of breeds that are worthy of the name that they represent, many are so breed down they are just two notches above hatchery quality. Only maybe one or two large Hatheries have the other rare breeds and are just average in appearance in size, color or type. Most of the people are as happy as a pig in mud with them and dont care to want to improve them. You could say they are not true PRESERVATIONISTS.
I think the key word is Preservation of a breed and the average person just wants to keep them at the level of what they are. It takes a lot of hard work and money to keep these strains going and when you share them with others and they dont do anything with them or let them die off in two years its frustrating to the breeder. Why people are not wanting to help the beginners like they use to is beyond me. Maybe its just this guys region that he lives in. I have a message that my dear wife sent to this man and I would like you to read it. As a former Club Secetary of a large breed club she took the first blunt of the emails that came into the computer of people asking me how to locate rare breeds of all chickens. The question always was WHY DO THEY WANT such a weird breeds.
Why dont they want a breed that is around that they can learn to work with. The major reason these breeds are super rare is no breeders wants therm or knows how to breed them and many of these breeds just played out do to the fact they where not cracked up to what the books or spin doctors said they where. Its basicaly lack of SUPPLY and DEMAND.
I am going to take a vacation on trying to help people locate rare breeds. The will just have to find their own or get the Poultry Press or join a rare breed club who has a directory of how to locate these birds. Most of them say I dont plan to show them and I am sure many will not even buy a standard so whats the big deal who you get them from as you dont plan to improve or preserve them for the future anyway.
So you who have got a start of good birds keep it going. The others you got to ask your self do you really want to be a PRESERVATIONIST or a chicken collector? 99 percent of the people are chicken collectors and could care less what they look like. I guess its the new error of people or maybe its been that way all along and I have not seen this as I am a PRESERVATIONIST.
Here is my wife's email to our new dad and his two daughters. I will focus on helping him as he seems to want to be a preservationist. bob
Thanks z,
That certainly clears things up quite a bit as to why things are the way they are. The only thing is, what if it is just a whole big circle, where the breeders get tired of helping, so the people get rid of their chickens?
thanks again, L
Hi This is Bob’s wife . In a lot of ways I am more qualified to answer your question than Bob is.
This question is easy in some ways and a puzzle in others. With some it is just a normal attitude like in real life. For some it is they don’t want to share their knowledge because they are afraid you might beat them. but the a big part of the reason is people want to buy a champion in a box. What that is, is they want to buy a bird you ship to them then they take it out of the box maybe wash his feet and put Vaseline on his comb then win champion of the show, but you don’t give credit to anyone for the bird and they don’t want to pay anything for it
Another reason is after a year or less the people that buy the chickens no longer have chickens. We have sold hundreds of eggs, chicks and adult birds to people over the last 20 years. No more than 2 maybe 3 still have them. We have spend hours and hours on the phone, sent out thousands of articles, and I did the rock Club newsletter for 4 years helping people raise better chickens but it goes in one ear and out the other. After awhile you get tired of trying to help.
Third reason! People want to improve a breed that was never a breed to begin with. In our case it is blue rocks. There was never a really decent blue rock. The picture in the Standard of Perfection is a beautiful bird but it is not a real picture it is an artist drawing. People get upset when we tell them no one has decent blue rocks so they want to “save” the breed but there was never a breed to save to begin with.
I hope I have helped answer some of your questions. Just keep going to shows and asking questions, after a few shows the good exhibitors will see you are serious about raising good Silkes and will help you more and more. There are some very good silkies out there and it is a white bird so there is no color to worry about. Bob doesn’t know much about silkies but we will help you as much as we can.
Z
I am going to have to take some time off and slow down a bit as it is taking a toll on my soul. I was thinking about all the history I read going back about 100 years on Rhode Island Reds and the great strains that were once around. For example pure Harold Tompkins's strain? This man sold thousands of chicks and eggs to people be for he died in 1954. Who has descendants????
The Mrs. Donald Donaldson's line that she had what happen to all of her REDS??. I knew one man in Washington State that had her line and after he died the went up in smoke. She did sell birds be for her death to Mr. Reese he sold at least 1,000 chicks or adult birds and only two people left who have her line and maybe five people who have had their lines for the past three years. What happen to all those other people. The quite raising chickens? Many bought them and raised them to show and won with her birds but I guess they just could not breed thier own and it was easyer to buy fifty chicks from her each year and be a big winner that way. Problem is today we dont have people like her anymore who can supply champion chicks in a box.
It seems what we have left today is just a few of breeds that are worthy of the name that they represent, many are so breed down they are just two notches above hatchery quality. Only maybe one or two large Hatheries have the other rare breeds and are just average in appearance in size, color or type. Most of the people are as happy as a pig in mud with them and dont care to want to improve them. You could say they are not true PRESERVATIONISTS.
I think the key word is Preservation of a breed and the average person just wants to keep them at the level of what they are. It takes a lot of hard work and money to keep these strains going and when you share them with others and they dont do anything with them or let them die off in two years its frustrating to the breeder. Why people are not wanting to help the beginners like they use to is beyond me. Maybe its just this guys region that he lives in. I have a message that my dear wife sent to this man and I would like you to read it. As a former Club Secetary of a large breed club she took the first blunt of the emails that came into the computer of people asking me how to locate rare breeds of all chickens. The question always was WHY DO THEY WANT such a weird breeds.
Why dont they want a breed that is around that they can learn to work with. The major reason these breeds are super rare is no breeders wants therm or knows how to breed them and many of these breeds just played out do to the fact they where not cracked up to what the books or spin doctors said they where. Its basicaly lack of SUPPLY and DEMAND.
I am going to take a vacation on trying to help people locate rare breeds. The will just have to find their own or get the Poultry Press or join a rare breed club who has a directory of how to locate these birds. Most of them say I dont plan to show them and I am sure many will not even buy a standard so whats the big deal who you get them from as you dont plan to improve or preserve them for the future anyway.
So you who have got a start of good birds keep it going. The others you got to ask your self do you really want to be a PRESERVATIONIST or a chicken collector? 99 percent of the people are chicken collectors and could care less what they look like. I guess its the new error of people or maybe its been that way all along and I have not seen this as I am a PRESERVATIONIST.
Here is my wife's email to our new dad and his two daughters. I will focus on helping him as he seems to want to be a preservationist. bob
Thanks z,
That certainly clears things up quite a bit as to why things are the way they are. The only thing is, what if it is just a whole big circle, where the breeders get tired of helping, so the people get rid of their chickens?
thanks again, L
Hi This is Bob’s wife . In a lot of ways I am more qualified to answer your question than Bob is.
This question is easy in some ways and a puzzle in others. With some it is just a normal attitude like in real life. For some it is they don’t want to share their knowledge because they are afraid you might beat them. but the a big part of the reason is people want to buy a champion in a box. What that is, is they want to buy a bird you ship to them then they take it out of the box maybe wash his feet and put Vaseline on his comb then win champion of the show, but you don’t give credit to anyone for the bird and they don’t want to pay anything for it
Another reason is after a year or less the people that buy the chickens no longer have chickens. We have sold hundreds of eggs, chicks and adult birds to people over the last 20 years. No more than 2 maybe 3 still have them. We have spend hours and hours on the phone, sent out thousands of articles, and I did the rock Club newsletter for 4 years helping people raise better chickens but it goes in one ear and out the other. After awhile you get tired of trying to help.
Third reason! People want to improve a breed that was never a breed to begin with. In our case it is blue rocks. There was never a really decent blue rock. The picture in the Standard of Perfection is a beautiful bird but it is not a real picture it is an artist drawing. People get upset when we tell them no one has decent blue rocks so they want to “save” the breed but there was never a breed to save to begin with.
I hope I have helped answer some of your questions. Just keep going to shows and asking questions, after a few shows the good exhibitors will see you are serious about raising good Silkes and will help you more and more. There are some very good silkies out there and it is a white bird so there is no color to worry about. Bob doesn’t know much about silkies but we will help you as much as we can.
Z
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Bob...and Bob's wife... hang in there. Some of us appreciate your efforts. Yes, I have seen folks come and go in this Fancy. But a few stay. Even if 1 out of 10 stay, it is a success.
As far as locating rare breeds, best advice is not ask Bob, Walt, or even me. Join the SPPA and ask them. They have dedicated themselves to preserving the rare breeds of poultry.
Quote:
As far as locating rare breeds, best advice is not ask Bob, Walt, or even me. Join the SPPA and ask them. They have dedicated themselves to preserving the rare breeds of poultry.
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I think it is the "instant gratification" of the times we live in that have made people lazy. After all, these days there are events where "everyone is a winner" and each kid goes home with a trophy so that no kid feels bad that they didn't win. The thought of having to do....work to achieve something......GASP! Apparently working for something has become a novel concept instead of the norm these days.
Hang in there Bob! You've got a lot of knowledge and there are people that appreciate it!
Hang in there Bob! You've got a lot of knowledge and there are people that appreciate it!
This proposed dividion of duties is quite commonly written, but I really can't say I've found it to be true. From what I've seen, if you breed a strong combed male to a weak combed female, you stand to get a lot of weak combs, and if you breed a poorly sized male to a strongly sized female, you stand to get a lot of less than fowl. I'm not saying that via compensation one does get strong stock out of each breeding, but it has yet to seem to me that there is a truly gender specific trend that makes an overwhelming difference.
Dear Mr. Bob,
You were one of the first folks to encourage me here, despite my not being ready to jump on the RIR wagon. I agree with BnJrob. For what it is worth, I also believe these two things: parents get tired of parenting after a while, meaning, that at some point you have to help people to help themselves and not keep compensating for them-- appreciation is always a breath of fresh air; two, I am a weirdo but not fickle. There is a difference. I enjoy having a few of this and that right now that are unusual because it is fun and gets my feet good and wet before I decide to take on real serious projects. I have some birds here I just enjoy, some just for eggs, some that are UG-lee but sweet, and some that are interesting to me. Back yard chicken keeping and hobby farming in general is a new wave of 'fad.' See my Avatar? I'm just waiting for a blonde Hollywood gal to go down the carpet with a chicken in her bag! Forgive me sir, but I believe that you, are wise but frustrated by those newbies who don't realize the work it takes to get where you are. If I may: you never know who your birds inspired over the years. There's a lot of culls running around and only a few show or breed quality... in chickens too.
Bob, please hang in there. There are those of us younger breeders who need people like you. Isn't that what you are lamenting? I started raising Andalusians 8 years ago and have never looked back. I have NO ONE to counsel me on this particular breed. I've done a lot of research, mostly for health benefits and some breeding tactics as well as things to look for in a great layer breed. I know you don't raise Andalusians but rather rocks and reds and things like that which are more plenteous and therefore if I was to raise those birds instead, I'd have more help. I tried to get started in rose combed red bantams but I just couldn't grasp the whole idea with the under color/smut and black tail feathers all the way to the skin. I still have a few of those hanging around because I just love them. Don't know why I couldn't get it. Andalusians are my first love (in the chicken realm) and I can't image not having them and working to improve them for the rest of my life. They are apparently more difficult but I'm succeeding. I've seen great improvement in my stock from when I started. I guess I would call myself a Preservationist. In order to have some kind of genetic diversity I have to get birds from wherever I can when I need an infusion of new blood because they are just so very rare. Getting an Andalusian without Minorca blood is a challenge too!
I've had people come to me too wanting some of my "really nice birds" but they don't want to pay for that really nice bird, nor do I want to give it away. They think that $5 or $10 for a CHICKEN is more than enough! I have dedicated almost every waking moment of my life for the last 8 years to improving this breed. I think that is worth more than $5 or $10. People that have gotten some of my birds... maybe they don't think about it but they never have tried to contact me for help in breeding and what to look for. So, I don't think it is just that the breeders don't want to help but maybe the people getting into the breed don't think they need help... I mean, how hard can it be? You put a nice looking rooster with a nice looking hen or six and they do it all, we just reap the benefits, right? WRONG. Also, I have never seen Andalusians shown by those who have gotten birds from me with the exception of two people. I guess people think they are pretty birds and think they really would like to have some but don't realize that you have to work with them, just a little bit, to keep them calm. I don't know, just guessing that this is the reason I have seen a rooster from a pair I sold to someone, in the sales room the following year. It made me pretty mad! Some people have been amazed at how calm my birds are when they're supposed to be "flighty." Well B.S. to that! I don't like it when birds jump through the roof just because I walked by and so I work with my birds often. By the way, NONE of my birds have ever been THAT flighty! By "work" I just mean that I am around them so they are accustomed to someone being close by. I don't handle them any more than I need to but I don't think they are terrified of me.
We do need you Bob.
In fact, I was going to ask you something in regard to the feather width/quality.
I have a little pullet I was looking over just the other day. She has fantastic width of feather but she's not much to look at. She's still very young and I know she'll never be much to look at but in the interest of increasing laying capacity I know I should probaby wait to determine her capacity and type and all that. I have no idea if she was one who feathered out first or not. I wasn't looking for it at that time. You said in another post that width of feather determines egg laying capacity. I think I might hang onto her just to see how that goes. Of course I don't trap nest to see who lays what/when and all that when they're not in breeding pens. Maybe that would be a good idea? Do you have information on how many trap nests I would need for 20-30 hens? I am not able to breed masses of chicks, nor have I come to the point where I have two or three perfect birds and I can cull all the rest. I keep many to choose from because they all have something that the male I plan to cross her with needs what she has, or visa versa.
Are you just talking about stepping back from helping people looking for heritage birds? I hope you don't step back too far. I really appreciate your wisdom which you so generously share.
I've had people come to me too wanting some of my "really nice birds" but they don't want to pay for that really nice bird, nor do I want to give it away. They think that $5 or $10 for a CHICKEN is more than enough! I have dedicated almost every waking moment of my life for the last 8 years to improving this breed. I think that is worth more than $5 or $10. People that have gotten some of my birds... maybe they don't think about it but they never have tried to contact me for help in breeding and what to look for. So, I don't think it is just that the breeders don't want to help but maybe the people getting into the breed don't think they need help... I mean, how hard can it be? You put a nice looking rooster with a nice looking hen or six and they do it all, we just reap the benefits, right? WRONG. Also, I have never seen Andalusians shown by those who have gotten birds from me with the exception of two people. I guess people think they are pretty birds and think they really would like to have some but don't realize that you have to work with them, just a little bit, to keep them calm. I don't know, just guessing that this is the reason I have seen a rooster from a pair I sold to someone, in the sales room the following year. It made me pretty mad! Some people have been amazed at how calm my birds are when they're supposed to be "flighty." Well B.S. to that! I don't like it when birds jump through the roof just because I walked by and so I work with my birds often. By the way, NONE of my birds have ever been THAT flighty! By "work" I just mean that I am around them so they are accustomed to someone being close by. I don't handle them any more than I need to but I don't think they are terrified of me.
We do need you Bob.
In fact, I was going to ask you something in regard to the feather width/quality.
I have a little pullet I was looking over just the other day. She has fantastic width of feather but she's not much to look at. She's still very young and I know she'll never be much to look at but in the interest of increasing laying capacity I know I should probaby wait to determine her capacity and type and all that. I have no idea if she was one who feathered out first or not. I wasn't looking for it at that time. You said in another post that width of feather determines egg laying capacity. I think I might hang onto her just to see how that goes. Of course I don't trap nest to see who lays what/when and all that when they're not in breeding pens. Maybe that would be a good idea? Do you have information on how many trap nests I would need for 20-30 hens? I am not able to breed masses of chicks, nor have I come to the point where I have two or three perfect birds and I can cull all the rest. I keep many to choose from because they all have something that the male I plan to cross her with needs what she has, or visa versa.
Are you just talking about stepping back from helping people looking for heritage birds? I hope you don't step back too far. I really appreciate your wisdom which you so generously share.
Bob you mention people wanting breeds not to show even or breed but just to have. I ask - why not let them? Wouldn't it be better for the backyard laying flock to be a flock of pure exhibition quality birds rather than a mixed flock of hatchery quality? I tried to convince my mother for a long time to replace her flock of production Reds with a good flock of heritage Reds or another exhibition/breeding strain of a pure breed. Keep two roos and let one in the flock with the hens one season and the other in the next season. Yes it's flock breeding without detailed records but better that than how many people across the country have production "Rhode Island Red" flocks reproducing and then they sell them to their neighbor as the real deal and soon everyone thinks that RIRs are buff colored pinched and high tailed bad tempered birds.
And I am sure many people have the bloodlines you referred to as being sadly lost. Unfortunately, they don't know what they have and probably never will. Maybe some day you'll be up at a county fair show and be stopped dead in your tracks by a beautiful Red only to find that the kid's grandpa got his flock of fifteen layers and a few old Red roosters from that guy who got them from Mrs Donaldson, and they've been letting them run the farm for the last twenty years.
I was just having a nice conversation this morning with a breeder and we talked about how sometimes with a really rare breed it does come down to those backyard flocks that might have an unexpected quality you have to go back to. I know some of the better Dominiques in the country have gotten heavy influence from farmer's flocks that were never shown. Yes the breed still has a long way to go but would be in far worse shape if not for these backyard keepers.
And I am sure many people have the bloodlines you referred to as being sadly lost. Unfortunately, they don't know what they have and probably never will. Maybe some day you'll be up at a county fair show and be stopped dead in your tracks by a beautiful Red only to find that the kid's grandpa got his flock of fifteen layers and a few old Red roosters from that guy who got them from Mrs Donaldson, and they've been letting them run the farm for the last twenty years.
I was just having a nice conversation this morning with a breeder and we talked about how sometimes with a really rare breed it does come down to those backyard flocks that might have an unexpected quality you have to go back to. I know some of the better Dominiques in the country have gotten heavy influence from farmer's flocks that were never shown. Yes the breed still has a long way to go but would be in far worse shape if not for these backyard keepers.
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