Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[NYREDS]

Thank you very much, and I'm not sure how you knew that, but yes I'm speaking of the Russian Orloff. I actually do have an APA SOP (blasted thing was 80 bucks, lol) - but according to the *old* SOP, they weren't even called Orloffs, but were only called "Russians".

The "lack of interest from breeders" is what Wiki states although I don't really think Wiki is all that accurate either - there are lots of discrepancies.

Personally, I think the reason the "Russians" were removed from the APA Standard is painfully obvious (and a lot of bs) but...I'm new to chickens so my theory may be bs too.

1875 is the year they were removed or "delisted". If you know about history, you know the 1870s were a very interesting time for Russia, particularly 1884-77 Coincidental? Yeh, maybe. I still think if the APA had said "Orloff" as the breed they'd still be in there.

But, I guess that's just another conspiracy theory and we may never know.

In any case, I LOVE THESE BIRDS and I'm angry that they're not APA recognized. In regard to breeding them back to what they were before? That...is my dream (with regard to chickens anyway).

Edited to add: I want that old Orloff that was so pitch black that it shimmered blue-green.

(and I really don't like black chickens) ...but the RO is something else entirely as far as chickens go. They're so regal looking, they're like the king of chickens. I like the ones we have now as well (the spangled) but they remind me of Jubilees and Speckled Sussex. I love those too...but they should be a separate breed since they don't look like the old Orloffs.

I'm rambling, done now.

(pretty sure this 2 year wait isn't going to work)

I have to say this is the first time I've heard the Anti-Russian theory explaining why Russians were removed from the Standard. Do you have anything at all to support this theory or is it total speculation? Along the same line do you know who was on the grassy knoll?
You should have bought your Standard directly from the APA. It would have saved you $21.
You can be angry about Orloffs 'till the cows come home & they still won't be in the Standard. Another option would be to communicate with the many other people who find these birds appealing & go through the admission process. The second option will yield your desired result, the first will not.

 

[3riverschick]

Can anyone point me to something to read if there is such on what the Standard would be, not of a breed itself, but of how to maintain a breed or line. Perhaps that really is the core topic of this thread but are there any gen. accepted rules? established guidelines etc which I need to go read?

Thanks
FeyRaine
=======================================
Hi.
Judge Wid Card was Danne Honour's Uncle's Uncle. If you surf Buff Poultry, you'll see Danne Honour is pretty much the Dean of Buff Poultry Breeding. Judge Card liked to go to the shows and explain breeding laws to the public. He was a widely respected poultry breeder and APA Judge. He created the White-Laced Red Cornish breed.
In 1912, Judge Card wrote a pithy little volume on the breeding laws of standard fowl. It is filled with info on breeding methods and breedng to color I make a practice to re-read it several times a year. Fortunately, it has been scanned online at archive.org and can be downloaded and read there for free.
http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312
Best Success,
Karen

 

[CluckyCharms]

I have to say this is the first time I've heard the Anti-Russian theory explaining why Russians were removed from the Standard. Do you have anything at all to support this theory or is it total speculation? Along the same line do you know who was on the grassy knoll?
You should have bought your Standard directly from the APA. It would have saved you $21.
You can be angry about Orloffs 'till the cows come home & they still won't be in the Standard. Another option would be to communicate with the many other people who find these birds appealing & go through the admission process. The second option will yield your desired result, the first will not.

I know what I said isn't one of the main discussions when people talk about what happened with the delisting of the Russians, I just found it very coincidental that the Russians (as they were recognized back then) were delisted in 1875, the same year all heck broke loose. My sister was a Russian linguist in the United States Navy all during the 90s, and since I was younger than her, I was interested in what she was doing. She couldn't tell me much, so I decided I'd take a fairly deep look into Russia's history.

To answer your question, nope, I don't have anything to support this theory and yes, it's total speculation, that's why I said "I think" and "my theory" (and I also said my theory could be bs) lol! I really don't think we'll ever know for sure to be honest, what their reasons were. I don't believe it was "lack of breeder interest".

I didn't buy my book via APA, I bought it from e-bay. When I go to the APA site it's usually to read their articles, I'll have to go look again now; thank you for informing me because now I'll know for the next edition. =)

I know all about the grassy knoll, and I really am sorry if I offended you with my conspiracy theory about why I believe the ROs were delisted, that wasn't my intention at all.

[Edited to add] The main reason why I haven't taken the avenue you suggested (yet) is because I'm not sure how to go about it. I've visited the thread here at BYC a few times, but mainly the SRO that we have in the states today is the main bird of discussion on that thread (mainly). I like the SRO a great deal but my interest in getting some is to find a way to bring *back* the old Russian Orloff from the old SOP.

 

[Pozees]

[Edited to add]  The main reason why I haven't taken the avenue you suggested (yet) is because I'm not sure how to go about it.  I've visited the thread here at BYC a few times, but mainly the SRO that we have in the states today is the main bird of discussion on that thread (mainly).  I like the SRO a great deal but my interest in getting some is to find a way to bring *back* the old Russian Orloff from the old SOP.

I have followed that thread for a couple of months after reading the whole thing to catch up. If you look back several pages you will see pictures of the Orloffs in other colors including black from overseas, gorgeous, typey, bigger than anything here, and several subscribers have offered that they would love to have those colors, that type, that size. For most in the US it is a desire they cannot afford to fulfill by importing, and must be achieved by learning a whole heck of a lot about breeding for all the traits that do not currently exist. I describe the RO as being on my down-the-road wish list, because I have no experience breeding poultry toward a goal, and would never attempt to do something so ambitious with such a rare breed until I learn more about breeding poultry.

 

[Chris09]

I'm just wondering at what point you consider the stock from a "new line." Although I suspect the answer is, "If it causes problems it's a new line. If it doesn't cause more problems than it solves, it's the same line."

Here's why I'm wondering: based on what I've read, most of the Black Java bloodlines in existence today came through Duane Urch, who got them maybe 50 years ago. A few breeders got birds from Mr. Urch and have been working on them for the last 10-20 years. I have ordered chicks from Mr. Urch for delivery in the spring. I was talking to another Black Java breeder in my area and he is not sure of the exact lineage of the birds he has. He assumes the birds originated from Mr. Urch's birds at some point, although he got them from someone else. Are we asking for trouble if we cross some of Mr. Urch's birds into the other line? Or can we assume that they were all the same lineage to start with a couple of decades ago, so it should be ok to cross them now?

Sarah

Quote:

For the most part a line is any breeding other than your own.
Let's say that you have a trio of birds that you got directly from Urch that trio is Urch's line.
Now when you breed that trio of birds there offspring are your line. They my be out of Urch's stock but they are your line, you picked the bird to be bred.

Chris

 

[Yellow House Farm]

oh no...laced polish are considered a heritage breed?? That's not good for me, because now I have to add another one to my list of wants.

Your second paragraph concerns me because you're basically talking about people such as myself, who have a very easy time being naive and gullible when it comes to chickens. So...maybe you all can offer some advice regarding *true* heritage breeders, how you can tell the difference between a genuine one and a con artist - and...once you have distinguished between the two - where do you find them? It's very sad about the acquaintance of your friend, I'm sure she was simply devastated to learn of her flock's true identity.

This is a great question. Above all, go to poultry shows. Read your Standard--a lot-and go to poultry shows. Introduce yourself to folk at the poultry show. Get to know them. I think the best way to do that is to volunteer for the set-up and especially them clean-up. Volunteering will help the people who work the shows recognize your seriousness, and they'll be happy to help. Read your Standard again and again. Read and reread the same sections. Read the standard of your breed untold numbers of times.

When you're ready for brood stock, consult your new poultry show friends. If there's high quality stock in your breed and variety of choice, they'll know about it or know folk who know about it. If there isn't any available and you'll need to do some fancy breeding, they'll know how to do it or know folk who know how to do it. This year, someone came to our show with "breeder" cochins. They were SO excited about their birds and were sure to win.... When they arrived, we didn't know if they were hatchery Langshans or hatchery Cochins. They were so sad and then became frustrated--not rude--just undertandibly frustrated. They proclaimed, "But we got them from a breeder." Gently, I responded that there are no "breeders" of Black Cochins in New England, let alone New Hampshire. The only serious Cochin in New England is a Buff Cochin breeder of fine quality stock in Massachusetts.

Very few if any serious and long-term breeders of high quality stock will be unknown to the Standardbred poultry community. If the show people in their area don't know them, chances are they're not (yet) breeders. Reading is so important, and there are specific books that are goldmines. Still, spending extended time with breeders is the true way to concretize that book-knowledge into applicable know-how, and going to shows keeps you on the ball. I aways leave with higher resolve to cull harder, to be more judicious in my pairings, to be less distracted. For breeders, going to shows is like going to church, it keeps you on the straight and narrow.

Books: The SOP--sine qua non. Robinson's The Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture (Bob's recommendation and one for which I am truly grateful.); G. T. Klein's Backyard Poultry Keeping (A thin volume with all of the practical stuff for strong breeding covered); Lamon and Slocum's The Mating and Breeding of Poultry; Hogan's The Call of the Hen. Another little volume of interest is Fred Hams' Old Poultry Breeds. It's only a few dozen pages long, but it puts a lot into historical perspective.

If you follow this recipe, you won't be duped.

Also (another question sorry)

There is a breed I want, and it was recognized by the APA. Due to lack of interest from breeders (crazy if you ask me) it was removed. According to its initiation/acceptance date by the APA this bird would qualify as a heritage breed if it were to be recognized by the APA again.

...how do you make or at least give it your all - to get a chicken *re*recognized by the APA after it's already been removed? Also - would the *new* date of initiation into the APA's standard be applicable for that breed (no longer making them heritage) or would it revert to the initial acceptance date when they were first accepted (prior to removal)..which would make them heritage applicable since they were not removed from the list until 1875 (way before mid 20th century).

thanks in advance

There's a set way of having a breed/variety accepted into the Standard, but you can't do it alone. It has to be a community effort. As Bill pointed out, contact other folk interested in the breed and start the process. If the breed you mention is the "Orloff", you have an uphill battle ahead. Standardizing their type and giving them that specific finish that marks Standardbred poultry is going to require multiple years of specific breeding to a proposed Standard. Morever, the efforts have to be duplicated and replicated by other breeders who are "in" on the project.

The Orloffs currently made available by hatcheries are Spangled, and, although I've never owned any, the photos I've seen are of poorly Spangled birds. In order to understand what is and what goes into breeding good spangling, you'd probably need to have a trio of Spangled OEG Bantams about the place as a reference.

Realistically and in the fairness of full disclosure, the kind of breeding that it will require to fix the type and unify the coloring of the Spangled Russion Orloff will take a long time, whereby I mean years and years. If I were truly wanting to work for the recognition of the Orloff, I would choose one other breed in a relatively strong position quality-wise. This breed would allow me to enjoy the shows and gain valuable experience in showing and prepping and, perhaps, the enjoyment of a level of success. This latter would serve to help you feel connected to the wider poultry community, and the Orloff would be a Hail Mary pass, long-term goal. I would, however, have only those two breeds; otherwise, I'd never succeed in the Orloff project. The kind of concentration needed for success is dire.

To someone just beginning to breed poultry, I'd recommend to keep the Orloff's on the back burner for a few years. Get that one other breed and learn the ropes there. Then, bring out the Orloffs in conjunction with that one other breed and stay focused for a very long time.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I don't use lights. Everything I do here including hatching is done naturally....I will occasionally use an incubator, but not if I can help it.

Walt

There is so much to be said for this!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

oh no...laced polish are considered a heritage breed?? That's not good for me, because now I have to add another one to my list of wants.

I'd only consider them if they are to be your one-and-only, or, perhaps, your one of two. They are in need of some loving, and you won't get anywhere with them if you're trying to do 10 things at once.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Do not fall into the trap of pretty colored chickens of no breed type. As a novice, stick with the soild colored breeds so that you can learn TYPE. Until you know what shape a bird is supposed to be, you are not ready to breed the rarer colored varieties with lacing, patterns, etc. That will come when you can spot the best TYPE bird in a class, regardless of color. Takes at least a couple of years, and some people never learn it.

Clucky I bumped this forward because there's a lot to be said right here esp. in just your case. Those special colors and patterns are exactly what will break the desire to move on if success is not imminent right off the bat.

I too should practice what I preach some here, I have too many projects to do all at once but I'm going to work on a couple at a time and then I will try to take on another as I think I get a handle on each one.

Jeff

 

[Hangtown Farms]

This is a great thread. Though not a Heritage Breed I can take alot of info out of this thread and use it towards my Penedesenca and Empordanesa as there is not many people truly working with them a even fewer information on them.
Thanks Jason