Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[normanack]

It might be very helpful for some of the very knowledgeable folk here to post a list of some breeds that they consider need attention, whether:

1. on the brink of real and dire extinction, in need of simply increasing the population, then improving them
2. very rare and in need of more dedicated individuals to continue the old strains and keep them good
3. real project birds, with difficult problems, whether genetic or building breeder consensus or getting APA recognition -- i.e. the Orloff
4. rare breeds that are a bit easier to find stock and breed mentors for than the really rare ones

Or whatever categories you would think useful.

p.s. I know the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy has rarity designations for chickens and other animals, but I'm looking for your own opinions on specific breeds that might be a good fit for people with different levels of experience and dedication or slightly different goals, like the categories above.

 

[campinechickens]

Yesterday someone mentioned that they considered Buckeyes true homestead fowl.
I'm curious, what is your definition of a true homestead fowl? What characteristics should they have? Can you recommend some breeds that fit the bill? Everyone's opinion would be welcome!

 

[desertmarcy]

I have to say this is the first time I've heard the Anti-Russian theory explaining why Russians were removed from the Standard. Do you have anything at all to support this theory or is it total speculation? Along the same line do you know who was on the grassy knoll?
You should have bought your Standard directly from the APA. It would have saved you $21.
You can be angry about Orloffs 'till the cows come home & they still won't be in the Standard. Another option would be to communicate with the many other people who find these birds appealing & go through the admission process. The second option will yield your desired result, the first will not.

CluckyCharms, are you posting on the Russian Orloff thread? There are a group of us on that thread, including me, who have Orloffs and would also like to see them back in the Standard. I just showed a nice trio, the judge really liked them, said they had the proper comb type and nice spangling, but of course he couldn't place them against the other AOSB birds since they aren't in the Standard. I like to show mine anyway, try to get people interested in them.

 

[Lacy Blues]

For the most part a line is any breeding other than your own.
Let's say that you have a trio of birds that you got directly from Urch that trio is Urch's line.
Now when you breed that trio of birds there offspring are your line. They my be out of Urch's stock but they are your line, you picked the bird to be bred.

Chris

Chris,

I always figured that if I got a pair or trio of birds from someone and mated them together, then they were still that person's line. It would be the following year, when I had several birds to choose from and I made my choices and got my culls out of the way and bred my chosen birds, that only then were they my line.

If you only get a pair/trio, you really don't have much to choose from. So you breed what you have.

Am I wrong in this?

 

[CluckyCharms]

I thank everyone for their input thus far and I am reading everything with a great deal of interest, and writing a *lot* down, and bookmarking a lot as well.
Thank you for the continued advice and information, I'm soaking it in.

 

[mrheinz77]

Chris,
I always figured that if I got a pair or trio of birds from someone and mated them together, then they were still that person's line. It would be the following year, when I had several birds to choose from and I made my choices and got my culls out of the way and bred my chosen birds, that only then were they my line.
If you only get a pair/trio, you really don't have much to choose from. So you breed what you have.
Am I wrong in this?

I've seen a lot of discussion on this. Some believe the offspring of the purchased stock are your line, others say the second or third generation. Others say they are not your line until you have created something that distinguishes your line from others and breeds true. These people state their stock originates from XYZ line but since the original breeder didn't make the crosses, they are not that breedera line anymore, just descendents of that line.

I'm just restating what I have seen various places.

 

[imtrying]

my two cents on what makes a line:

if i were a breeder and had people using my name as a representation of the birds they bred and are selling, i would be offended. obviously, i had nothing to do with the choices you're making and offspring resulting from those decisions. i find it shady and exploitative.

 

[CluckyCharms]

I have followed that thread for a couple of months after reading the whole thing to catch up. If you look back several pages you will see pictures of the Orloffs in other colors including black from overseas, gorgeous, typey, bigger than anything here, and several subscribers have offered that they would love to have those colors, that type, that size. For most in the US it is a desire they cannot afford to fulfill by importing, and must be achieved by learning a whole heck of a lot about breeding for all the traits that do not currently exist. I describe the RO as being on my down-the-road wish list, because I have no experience breeding poultry toward a goal, and would never attempt to do something so ambitious with such a rare breed until I learn more about breeding poultry.

I don't have experience in breeding poultry toward a goal either...but I will attempt anything ambitious, even if it's overly ambitious or an ambition that is far-fetched, if it means there is even a 1% chance of success. I won't change who I am to satisfy the minority or the majority. 2 years from now is how long I have to learn everything and anything I can about the breeds I want to focus on, before actually starting in. If that means I'll have one heck of a "to do list" then that's okay. I'm certainly not going to wait 10 years or more until I'm more accomplished or experienced to start in on a rare breed. Time is precious and time is something that nobody can say they have a plenitude of with absolute certainty. Do I have a lot to learn? Absolutely. Am I being naive in thinking I can do this successfully? No, I don't think I am at all. Somewhere, at some point in time, all these breeds were made by people who had never done it before at all, and were successful because they tried something with their chickens that nobody else would. In my situation, this breed already exists, the blueprints of the building have already been drawn - all I have to do is build it. I may end up with a lot of broken huts and kitty-whompus shacks before I end up with the Taj Mahal of chickens...but I'm okay with that. =)

 

[fowlman01]

my two cents on what makes a line:

if i were a breeder and had people using my name as a representation of the birds they bred and are selling, i would be offended. obviously, i had nothing to do with the choices you're making and offspring resulting from those decisions. i find it shady and exploitative.

I agree. I'm kind of particular about who I sell birds to and I don't want them throwing my name around as "Walt Leonard's line". I don't mind if they say they got their start from me, but I don't want anything to do with whatever they produce.....even if it is outstanding. The first mating usually comes out very well, but after that it can go downhill rather quickly if they don't manage the breeding properly. This "who's line is it" discussion has gone on forever and can be very misleading. People use the original breeders name as a sales gimmick for the most part.

The other thing we breeders run across is people saying that they bred a winning bird..."No it is not a bird I bought from you Walt, it is one I produced on my own" while I am looking at my toe punch on the bird. Because they can't recognize a bird, they don't think anyone else can either. I can easily recognize birds hatched here. I recognize certain breedings done by good breeders. There is almost always a genetic imprint associated with a good line of birds.

Walt

 

[CluckyCharms]

my two cents on what makes a line:

if i were a breeder and had people using my name as a representation of the birds they bred and are selling, i would be offended. obviously, i had nothing to do with the choices you're making and offspring resulting from those decisions. i find it shady and exploitative.

I agree. I'm kind of particular about who I sell birds to and I don't want them throwing my name around as "Walt Leonard's line". I don't mind if they say they got their start from me, but I don't want anything to do with whatever they produce.....even if it is outstanding. The first mating usually comes out very well, but after that it can go downhill rather quickly if they don't manage the breeding properly. This "who's line is it" discussion has gone on forever and can be very misleading. People use the original breeders name as a sales gimmick for the most part.

The other thing we breeders run across is people saying that they bred a winning bird..."No it is not a bird I bought from you Walt, it is one I produced on my own" while I am looking at my toe punch on the bird. Because they can't recognize a bird, they don't think anyone else can either. I can easily recognize birds hatched here. I recognize certain breedings done by good breeders. There is almost always a genetic imprint associated with a good line of birds.

Walt

I agree with both of you with regard to "whose line is it anyway?" I've recently had the unfortunate experience of getting hatching eggs from someone who claimed the parents were a certain breeder's line (birds that are highly sought after). Just this morning I found out via e-mail that 6 (yes, 6) generations ago they were so-and-so's line and therefore they're still carrying around that DNA so that's the same line - even though the chickens have since been bred with chickens of the same breed and variety but they were obtained from *other people*. It's a load of malarkey and I 100% agree that it is a sales gimmick - a raunchy and disgusting one at that. Who knows what person B threw into person A's line in 6 generations worth of breedings? It could have been anything and everything (and in my case I'm pretty sure it was).

100% agree, and I was very disappointed and sad to learn the truth about my chicks. If person B buys a trio from person A then I believe the offspring of *those birds only* are still person A's line. That's where it ends in my opinion, the moment you breed *anything else* to those birds - how can you still say "so-and-so's lines" when they're now being bred with birds of your own or someone else's that you acquired? =/ I'm new to chickens but this part seems obvious to me.