Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[CluckyCharms]

The moment a breeder sells a trio to someone, the new owner becomes responsible for it. If the trio is not fed, and conditioned properly, the birds will be unrecognizable as being bred by the original breeder. Unless the chicks from the trio are raised properly, the same will be true, even if the original breeder picked out the trio, and sold it as a breeding trio . This is where a lot of novices make a big mistake in not following the breeder's feeding and conditioning program. It makes a HUGE difference.

If you know what you are doing, you can sometimes get birds who have not been optimally raised and conditioned, breed them right, and end up with very nice birds.Those become your birds. It takes about 20, or so years, to get to the point of being able to figure that out though, and you'll have to feed a lot of culls if you are wrong.

Thank you! for including that information. I think (sometimes) when people have so much experience with a certain topic (such as chickens) they (sometimes) forget what it was like when they knew nothing (or very little) and they don't include the "obvious" things. What you said is probably painfully obvious and a given to anyone who breeds chickens, but to the uneducated and unlearned - it's a vital part of the information collection process and something I actually didn't even think about. Now that you said it, of course it's obvious (the same can apply with any animal transitioning between owners) - but I didn't *think* about that with regard to chickens.

Sometimes the best stuff people can share with newbies is the stuff that seems "duh" to you.

Hip hip hurray to you for explaining that...it definitely makes sense. A chicken's diet affects their eggs, most people who research anything about chickens will read that...so the diet affects the chicks that are born. So does temperature and environment and a lot of other things - THANK YOU!

(why didn't I think of that?) but.....since you said it, it only cemented my opinion more; about lineage.

OOOO I think I love this thread...this is juicy stuff. This...is like eating crappy ballpark franks and then going to New York City and eating a good one from a vendor.

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

Ok, gonna chime in here with my scenario. I have yet to show a bird as I don't think I'm there yet, but I plan to show a pullet and a cockerel at the Dalton, Ga and Newnan, Ga shows in February

I started with a trio of Columbian Rock LF from Dick Nieuwland (Canada) and 2 pullets from Jerry Powells line (Ohio). I have bred them now for 3 seasons, incorporating the better traits of each line into one line (that I consider my own). I have one major fault in my males (brassiness in the hackles, shoulders and saddles). With the help of an expert in poultry genetics we feel we have identified the problem as being caused by a lacking "inhibitor" of Aph. So, I am having to incorporate yet another line into my, utilizing a quality line of Barred Rocks in order to introduce the "inhibitor" genetics that I need to clean up my males. Hopefully, after 2 generations of breeding the Barred Rock line (will either be a Stukel line bird or a Wheeler line bird) into my Columbians, I am hopeful that the brassiness will be removed.

So, in my case, I will have the influence of 3 different breeders birds, all incorporated into mine. Can someone tell me if I am being arrogant or erroneous in stating that once I've accomplished all of this that this line will be "my own"? I don't think I would be able to refer to it as "Nieuwland, Powell, Stukel/Wheeler" lineage would I?

 

[Chris09]

Identical? Never. Worse? Occasionally. Better? Many, many, many times, because I specifically selected *for* something I wanted to see improved when I set up the breeding pen, and culled the offspring based on how well they showed the desired outcome. The point is, I am breeding toward my goal of the perfect bird based on my interpretation of the SoP. (the one that exists only in my mind)

I understand what you are saying about someone making the false claim they have "So and So's "line". I've gotten into some tedious online discussions with a man who mistakenly claims he is keeping several "lines" of birds from long dead breeders. I pointed out to him that once he started choosing which birds were going to be kept as breeders, he no longer has the other man's "line", only birds descended from them. My comment was addressing what it takes to create a "line" in the first place.

Again, it is mho that simply putting birds together and producing even purebred chicks does not make a "line".

I think you may be confusing a Line and a Strain.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

Ok, gonna chime in here with my scenario. I have yet to show a bird as I don't think I'm there yet, but I plan to show a pullet and a cockerel at the Dalton, Ga and Newnan, Ga shows in February

I started with a trio of Columbian Rock LF from Dick Nieuwland (Canada) and 2 pullets from Jerry Powells line (Ohio). I have bred them now for 3 seasons, incorporating the better traits of each line into one line (that I consider my own). I have one major fault in my males (brassiness in the hackles, shoulders and saddles). With the help of an expert in poultry genetics we feel we have identified the problem as being caused by a lacking "inhibitor" of Aph. So, I am having to incorporate yet another line into my, utilizing a quality line of Barred Rocks in order to introduce the "inhibitor" genetics that I need to clean up my males. Hopefully, after 2 generations of breeding the Barred Rock line (will either be a Stukel line bird or a Wheeler line bird) into my Columbians, I am hopeful that the brassiness will be removed.

So, in my case, I will have the influence of 3 different breeders birds, all incorporated into mine. Can someone tell me if I am being arrogant or erroneous in stating that once I've accomplished all of this that this line will be "my own"? I don't think I would be able to refer to it as "Nieuwland, Powell, Stukel/Wheeler" lineage would I?

The first chicks you hatched out was your line.


Chris

 

[buffalogal]

So, in my case, I will have the influence of 3 different breeders birds, all incorporated into mine. Can someone tell me if I am being arrogant or erroneous in stating that once I've accomplished all of this that this line will be "my own"? I don't think I would be able to refer to it as "Nieuwland, Powell, Stukel/Wheeler" lineage would I?

Of course they will be *Your Line*. You took birds from source A (and B and C) and improved them, which is the whole point. (to me anyway)

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

The first chicks you hatched out was your line.


Chris

Thanks Chris....I guess these birds would not really have a "strain" then??

 

[CluckyCharms]

I think you may be confusing a Line and a Strain.

Chris

x2 ( and I don't mean that to pick at anybody) but anyone who breeds anything has a line...it's just descendents from a common progenitor. Even people who breed nothing but backyard mixes can have their own line.)

Even our fishtank has lineage going on - all kinds of lineage unfortunately (darn those blasted guppies...did you know those things pop out babies all the time? I didn't when I got them but OMG those things are busy little fish).

I'm brand new to chickens and I will admit that but lineage (lines) is not about chickens, it's about origin and ancestry and descendents...not applicable to just chickens. =]

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Ok, gonna chime in here with my scenario. I have yet to show a bird as I don't think I'm there yet, but I plan to show a pullet and a cockerel at the Dalton, Ga and Newnan, Ga shows in February

I started with a trio of Columbian Rock LF from Dick Nieuwland (Canada) and 2 pullets from Jerry Powells line (Ohio). .....

Dick Nieuwland is the guy responsible for putting together our session yesterday. Even though I don't personally work with Rocks, he has been FABULOUSLY helpful to me as I make my way through this poultry jungle and he is keen to promote new interest in poultry in general.

And as I make my way, what I may not have been able to absorb yesterday, might suddenly become clearer today as the blocks build .... I read, I look at birds, I attend this show and that show, bath a bird, ask another question of this breeder and that, and so on ....

Also planning to attend Newnan in February and pick even more brains there.

 

[buffalogal]

Sorry, I've not got the "multi-quote" thing figured out.

I wrote (andyou underlined):
My comment was addressing what it takes to create a "line" in the first place.

Again, it is mho that simply putting birds together and producing even purebred chicks does not make a "line".

I think you may be confusing a Line and a Strain.

Chris

Really? You think producing even one chick automatically establishes a "line"? I believe that a line is the result of several generations of careful selection for certain traits.

I have always used the terms "line" and "strain" as a line is a group of related animals (in this case, birds), that show similar traits and are all bred by one person (or partnership, whatever). A line "dies" when the original breeder is no longer directly involved but the strain continues. A strain is multiple groups of birds descended from a line that have slight variations between them (because there are different breeders involved) but that overall, the birds share enough traits (i.e. outstanding comb, tail set) that they are recognizable as being related. So, looking over a group of birds owned by three people, I might say that that excellent topline is evident in every strain that descends from the line bred by X.

 

[Chris09]

Thanks Chris....I guess these birds would not really have a "strain" then??

Well it depends on how you were doing the breeding,
Most of what I'v read says that you start with at least two unrelated strains and line-breed them for at least 3 generations then you cross that generations brother sister together to get your strain.

Chris