Botulism I'm dreading

[casportpony]

Read this article that I have written about the connection of compost and Botulism.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-compost-heap-benefit-or-harm-to-chickens.68151/

Great article!
http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/local_resources/cahfs_connection/2016/CAHFS_Connection_201611.pdf

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Really interesting thread.

I agree with the consensus that old compost (or even wood chip piles) that hasn't been turned can cause some nasty stuff to be in the middle. If I remember right, another BYCer had trouble with old compost poisoning his flock. I think he had gotten some badly turned wood chips from a tree trimmer or simply had left the trimmings in a pile for a long time before using. (He had it tested, and I forgot what was found in it).

I should add...I use wood chips constantly, from tree trimmers, in my wet Oregon, and have never, ever, had any trouble. It is all exposed to sunshine and rain and constant turning by the birds.

Standing water won't cause botulism, to my knowledge, but it can harbor coccidia in the wet soil.

And I second rat poisoning can be a problem if you used the 2nd generation "first bite" type that can produce substantial poisoning to anything that eats the dead rat. (First generation blood thinner types that have to be consumed over a period of time are much safer for secondary poisoning).

However, a dead rat in itself, though thoroughly disgusting, is often a tasty snack to chickens. I've bagged trapped, dead rats (no poisoning) and forgot to pick them up only to find an empty bag with a chicken running around with the dead rat several days later. The flock was having one of those soccer games for treats. (Ewww).

Chickens are omnivores and opportunists. Fortunately they also have a higher body temperature, about 105 to 107 degrees F, and a higher stomach acid than humans which helps protect them from normal bacteria that would make us really sick.

My question to the OP is...are your chickens exhibiting illness? What makes you think they are "off?"

Have you wormed them recently? What about external parasites?

From the description of your environment, rodents bring in a lot of external pests, and it may be far more likely that you've got a mite/lice problem in the birds causing anemia than botulism in the soil or rat poisoning. (That tends to have very specific symptoms).

My thoughts.
Lofmc

 

[casportpony]

Really interesting thread.

I agree with the consensus that old compost (or even wood chip piles) that hasn't been turned can cause some nasty stuff to be in the middle. If I remember right, another BYCer had trouble with old compost poisoning his flock. I think he had gotten some badly turned wood chips from a tree trimmer or simply had left the trimmings in a pile for a long time before using. (He had it tested, and I forgot what was found in it).

I should add...I use wood chips constantly, from tree trimmers, in my wet Oregon, and have never, ever, had any trouble. It is all exposed to sunshine and rain and constant turning by the birds.

Standing water won't cause botulism, to my knowledge, but it can harbor coccidia in the wet soil.

And I second rat poisoning can be a problem if you used the 2nd generation "first bite" type that can produce substantial poisoning to anything that eats the dead rat. (First generation blood thinner types that have to be consumed over a period of time are much safer for secondary poisoning).

However, a dead rat in itself, though thoroughly disgusting, is often a tasty snack to chickens. I've bagged trapped, dead rats (no poisoning) and forgot to pick them up only to find an empty bag with a chicken running around with the dead rat several days later. The flock was having one of those soccer games for treats. (Ewww).

Chickens are omnivores and opportunists. Fortunately they also have a higher body temperature, about 105 to 107 degrees F, and a higher stomach acid than humans which helps protect them from normal bacteria that would make us really sick.

My question to the OP is...are your chickens exhibiting illness? What makes you think they are "off?"

Have you wormed them recently? What about external parasites?

From the description of your environment, rodents bring in a lot of external pests, and it may be far more likely that you've got a mite/lice problem in the birds causing anemia than botulism in the soil or rat poisoning. (That tends to have very specific symptoms).

My thoughts.
Lofmc

 

[Mama Runner]

I gave up my compost in a way. We live in an area where most people burn their trash. YUK!!! I HATE THAT SMELL OF BURNING PLASTIC.

Being a science person I looked into burning organic waste. So my trash I drive to the dump. Instead of composting in the traditional sense, I burn all my organic material first. Then add it to the garden or put in a pile.

I burn their dirty.bedding and everything. I think before I started doing this I was feeding Everything within 10 miles of my house. We had skunks, racoons,rats,mice and possums. Which brought snakes and things to eat everything that was eating in my compost pile.

Since we started burning it and then adding it to the garden. We have cut down tremendously on both added unwanted wildlife and illness with the flock. Its something to consider and it is still helping and adding nutrition to the soil.

 

[ChiefSuperFly]

Soooo thankful for everyone's thoughts and leads to a solution!

Their water container is cleaned thoroughly and routinely, food is good and dry.

I see compost and I think people who do wood boxes with scraps and etc in it to get good planting soil. We don't have anything like that. The dirt in the runs can get pretty moist depending on the weather but it also dries out enough to where they can get a good dust bath. I keep everyone wormed twice a year, I hope that's enough? I inspect poop it's gross but I think it's important to pay attention to it. As far as macroscopic worms I've seen none. Combs are good color if mature, legs, beak eyes and inside of mouth look good/normal. I check them for mites and lice (worse than chicken poop in my opinion) and I will see some and I give them a good dust routinely one by one when they are roosting. I also dust the floor after cleaning out old straw and then dust and flip the new straw. Lastly none of the chickens figured out where the garden is... beyond the land of shepherds lol

As far as the runs- the only chickens to go digging to china are the ameraucanas. The rat was a good 4 or more inches down and I guess she heard the bugs doing their job on the remains? I feel it's certainly possible for there to be some more poison under the dirt somewhere. I had some ground collapse under me on day in a run so I know there's tunnels. I have never forked over the run
>.<
What if I bring up hidden rat poison while doing this? Like if it's no longer bright green and visible?

But let's say it's all broken down and gone (I hope to call the 800# and see if someone can inform me) and I turn over the soil- how deep do I need to go? And do I need to keep the chickens out of it for a specific amount of time? Also should I just skip it all and shovel out X inches and replace with good dirt? I mean that's a ton of work for me but I enjoy and want to keep my girls happy, ALIVE and just improving the coop. Still I would rather not do anything unnecessary.

As far as symptoms: the hens that are laying eggs boss my 3 18weekers. No food for you until the adults are done eating is the attitude. Heck maybe they are starving!? But they have been together for well over a month now. I haven't noticed the hens acting funny. My youngins will perch most of the day unless it's that groups turn to free range. And I do see them digging around in the coop and run some when not free. It's never more than one chicken displaying symptoms but I would say they act stunned? Wings are not dropped but the chicken is acts drunk. I haven't noticed anything other than that and then the next day close to perfectly normal if not completely normal but it's usually free range day by then...

Maybe the boss hens gave a good peck? I don't know but I want to do something about the run for sure just because of the rat business. I would enjoy destroying the tunnels regardless and not breaking my ankle!

 

[ChiefSuperFly]

I burn their dirty.bedding and everything. I think before I started doing this I was feeding Everything within 10 miles of my house. We had skunks, racoons,rats,mice and possums. Which brought snakes and things to eat everything that was eating in my compost pile.

Since we started burning it and then adding it to the garden. We have cut down tremendously on both added unwanted wildlife and illness with the flock. Its something to consider and it is still helping and adding nutrition to the soil.

Yes I read about burning it and so we haul it up to our spot and burn it. Luckily the dogs have kept everything away but the rats from earlier this year. I called the wharf rats. They were big for sure but no idea really what type. Never have I lost a little bird to anything (fingers crossed) and haven't had any birds die with wounds by any means other than our own chicken killer.

 

[azygous]

It's possible for your youngest chickens to be undernourished due to being chased away from the food. Sometimes it's necessary to provide a second feeding station for the very young in the flock until they grow enough self confidence to assert themselves at the feeder.

I will stick an old card table in the run and put food and water on it, and the youngsters love being able to hop up there and eat in peace and even to kick back and relax without getting harassed.

To better learn how toxic your rat poison is, look at the package for the active ingredients and then do an internet search. There are different types of poison that either kills very fast (really bad for birds) or slowly, requiring the rat to keep coming back for more and more before killing it. (may make a chicken sick, but won't necessarily kill them eating it just once.)

 

[ChiefSuperFly]

I may need to set up something for them and see how it goes. Ol drunkard was perfectly fine today... one of the 3 youngster is bigger than both the laying hens but still scared of the adults.

I still want to do something about the run... I'm thinking flipping it and getting air to it is a good start (minus the poison thing) but do I need to lock them out for a day or so? I'm afraid they will really dig it up if I start loosening the soil. If needed I can move a group into the feed area while the soil settles if need be, the diddles have a good safe spot already set up in there.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Is it possible you have Mountain Ash (Rowan) trees in your yard?

They should be with berries about now.

Mountain Ash berries will make wild birds drunk. I should think likewise with chickens.

Also many of us have late berries on vines and bushes. Do you have blackberries or other types ripening and available in free range? Those too can ferment. Wild birds have been known to appear quite tipsy after imbibing.

It might explain why the symptoms seem to mysteriously come and go...perhaps with the schedule of free ranging and access to berries?

LofMc

ETA: Here's an Audobon article that describes the process. Usually it is early spring or late winter, but the recipe is rotting fruit left on the vines or bushes. And yes, typical dazed stupor. Since your chickens are larger than typical song birds, it is possible they are just getting enough for a "buzz" rather than full intoxication. In my area, late fall sees a lot of blackberries that smell fermented. Easy pickings for any bird.

http://www.audubon.org/news/spring-air-and-so-are-intoxicated-birds

 

[aart]

If I remember right, another BYCer had trouble with old compost poisoning his flock. I think he had gotten some badly turned wood chips from a tree trimmer or simply had left the trimmings in a pile for a long time before using. (He had it tested, and I forgot what was found in it).

Maybe this one? ....... an Aspergillus bloom in a batch of fresh chippings.