Brahma Question

[Future Homesteader]

Hello! I just joined today. So my first question is if I get different colors of Brahma and want to raise chicks, are they considered pure bred if I intermingle the colors? Such as breeding a Light to a Dark? Would I get both or would the chicks be a mottled color of both?

I understand genetics when it comes to cat and dog breeding. Just need some wisdom on chicken colors/varieties!

Thank you

 

[NatJ]

if I get different colors of Brahma and want to raise chicks, are they considered pure bred if I intermingle the colors?

That's a little hard to answer.
Logically, they are still pure Brahmas, just not pure for any particular color.
But since people usually keep chicken colors separate when breeding, many people would not recognize the offspring as purebred, because they would not have any of the standard colors.

Such as breeding a Light to a Dark? Would I get both or would the chicks be a mottled color of both?

You would get chicks that are not right for either one. They would still have some pattern of white and black, but it would not be arranged properly for either variety.

I understand genetics when it comes to cat and dog breeding. Just need some wisdom on chicken colors/varieties!

Genetics work about the same in any species (chromosomes, inherited from parents, etc.), but you're right there are some points that are different from one kind of animal to another.

Gender determination: roosters have ZZ sex chromosomes, hens have ZW. So the hen determines the gender of the offspring, and all the sex linked traits seem to work backwards (as compared with how they work in mammals.)

Chickens have quite a few genes that control how the colors are arranged, and some of those genes interact in complicated ways. I don't know of anything like that in cats or dogs.

There are also quite a few genes that change how a given color looks (examples: black is diluted to blue or chocolate, gold is darkened to red or diluted to cream). Those are quite similar to some genes found in cats and dogs.

There are various other genes as well, but I can't easily sort them into categories.

If you are interested in learning chicken genetics, here is a listing of many genes, and a page that discusses some in more detail:
http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html
http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page2.html

And here is a chicken genetics calculator:
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
You can change the genes in the dropdown menu, and watch the little cartoons change.
It can also calculate offspring from various matings, but I have more fun just playing with the genes to see what happens. (Example: some dilutions affect just black or just red, while others affect both.)

 

[Future Homesteader]

Chickens have quite a few genes that control how the colors are arranged, and some of those genes interact in complicated ways. I don't know of anything like that in cats or dogs

Thank you so much! I will check out the links you gave. I have done some breeding and showing with cats/dogs. So I'm familiar with recessive genes.....somewhat. I was wondering if chickens worked like that. If you have a yellow lab and a black lab and breed them, they are all acceptable colors. I guess chicken breeds don't work that way. Or maybe just not all chicken breeds?

What about silkies? If you breed a black to a white? Would they be pure silkie? And hatch either all white or all black?

It would appear I have some researching to do! My plan was to get several colors as I love variety, but want to stay "pure" for selling hatching eggs/chicks.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond!

 

[NatJ]

Thank you so much! I will check out the links you gave. I have done some breeding and showing with cats/dogs. So I'm familiar with recessive genes.....somewhat. I was wondering if chickens worked like that. If you have a yellow lab and a black lab and breed them, they are all acceptable colors. I guess chicken breeds don't work that way. Or maybe just not all chicken breeds?

For most colors in most breeds of chickens, crossing them will give a bunch of non-standard colors.

Certain combinations do work.
For example, many varieties are based on a black chicken with some gene that modifies how it appears. Any of those can be interbred with black. But mixing the modifiers often gives non-standard colors again.

Examples that work:
--Black, blue, splash
--Black, chocolate
--Black, lavender

Adding barring or mottling to any of those groups also works fine.
Barring adds white lines on any chicken (usually called "barred" or "cuckoo.")
Mottling adds white dots on the tips of the feathers on any chicken.

Combinations that usually do not work:
--any cross of gold with silver tends to mess up the silvers
--any pairing that has black in different places on the chicken (Columbian pattern x laced pattern, or double-laced pattern x wheaten pattern, or partridge pattern x spangled pattern, etc.) Such a pairing usually produces non-standard patterns of black.

What about silkies? If you breed a black to a white? Would they be pure silkie? And hatch either all white or all black?

Pure Silkies, yes. Color, not quite.

There are at least two sets of genes that can cause white in chickens.

The most common "white" silkies have recessive white. Crossing them with black silkies will typically give black chicks in the first generation, but they may have bits of other color leaking through in places. The next generation is likely to have a bunch of weird colors, plus some whites and some blacks.

But some silkies have Dominant White instead. Crossing them with black silkies gives mostly-white birds with some black leakage. They are typically called "paint," and some people breed them on purpose. It is possible to have a breeding pen that produces black, paint, and white silkies if they are all genetically "black" with 0, 1, or 2 copies of the Dominant White gene.

It would appear I have some researching to do! My plan was to get several colors as I love variety, but want to stay "pure" for selling hatching eggs/chicks.

Definitely some researching!

Many people choose black/blue/splash for that very reason, maybe with cuckoo (barring gene) as well. That means a single pen can produce black, black cuckoo, blue, blue cuckoo, splash, and splash cuckoo. Or you can skip the splash, by having blacks of one gender with blacks & blues of the other gender.

 

[Rhodebar Lover]

Any variety of Brahma crossed to another Brahma is pure Brahma. Whether or not it's a recognized color is the question. You could always breed Dark and Partridge Brahmas together if you wanted two varieties. They're essentially the same variety, just with gold or silver genes. You won't end up with anything too funky, just some splits which are still useful for breeding! Good thread on how the cross works

 

[Future Homesteader]

Any variety of Brahma crossed to another Brahma is pure Brahma. Whether or not it's a recognized color is the question. You could always breed Dark and Partridge Brahmas together if you wanted two varieties. They're essentially the same variety, just with gold or silver genes. You won't end up with anything too funky, just some splits which are still useful for breeding! Good thread on how the cross works

Thank you so much! I'm going to read that now!

 

[Future Homesteader]

Certain combinations do work.
For example, many varieties are based on a black chicken with some gene that modifies how it appears. Any of those can be interbred with black. But mixing the modifiers often gives non-standard colors again.

Examples that work:
--Black, blue, splash
--Black, chocolate
--Black, lavender

Adding barring or mottling to any of those groups also works fine.
Barring adds white lines on any chicken (usually called "barred" or "cuckoo.")
Mottling adds white dots on the tips of the feathers on any chicken.

Combinations that usually do not work:
--any cross of gold with silver tends to mess up the silvers
--any pairing that has black in different places on the chicken (Columbian pattern x laced pattern, or double-laced pattern x wheaten pattern, or partridge pattern x spangled pattern, etc.) Such a pairing usually produces non-standard patterns of black.

NatJ, thank you again. You are a wealth of knowledge. I love this! It's exactly the kind of tips I need to get started researching. Definitely more complicated than dogs and cats.

 

[nikkers390]

Hello! I just joined today. So my first question is if I get different colors of Brahma and want to raise chicks, are they considered pure bred if I intermingle the colors? Such as breeding a Light to a Dark? Would I get both or would the chicks be a mottled color of both?

I understand genetics when it comes to cat and dog breeding. Just need some wisdom on chicken colors/varieties!

Thank you

The way I see it is this: interbreeding different colors of the same breed will not change the breed, but it could affect the color and markings.
If these birds are strictly for your own pleasure, no harm done.
On the other hand, if you plan on showing or 4H, it's better to separate for color to keep with SOP.
Ameraucana have certain SOP colors to show.
If those colors are not SOP, they call them EE, even though they are genetically Ameraucana.
I hope that helps.

 

[Future Homesteader]

The way I see it is this: interbreeding different colors of the same breed will not change the breed, but it could affect the color and markings.
If these birds are strictly for your own pleasure, no harm done.
On the other hand, if you plan on showing or 4H, it's better to separate for color to keep with SOP.

Yes, thank you. At this point, I am unsure of 4H involvement. But I do want to be able to sell/market correct SOP chickens. I think I just answered my question