Breed Stewards Thread

[WyandotteTX]

The SOP debate all boils down to how you want interpret the standard in my opinion. I myself, have always looked at it as a guideline for what the breed should strive to be. There are no perfect birds, never has been. When I raised birds and watch them grow and then select my breeding pens for the next year I am looking for what I think will be the best match of the male and female to produce a better bird. And not just in terms of the birds appearance but also in its vigor and thriftiness. You may have the greatest looking bird but is totally useless in the breeding pen...which I can say I have had a few unfortunately haha...

I myself have never been a fan of mix breeds and mongrels. That is only becuase my father was incessantly crossing up stuff to see what it looked like.... Frustrated me because I was trying to work on specific things and he was always hatching out "stuff" haha.... They are usually good chickens as chickens go but their value is less to me. That being said I like chickens of all flavors, well because they are still chickens.

To truly understand the nature of chickens and the development of the SOP you have to look at it in its historical context of the height of the industrial revolution when the mindset was that man could conquer all through technology and know how and hard work. A great many varieties of chickens were developed to fit the nature of our society at that time when most families had their own backyard chickens and access to your local chicken store where you could buy and sell chickens or eggs on a daily basis. There was one in my home town that was open up until the late 1960's. Society changed as did our relationship to our domesticated animals. We lost our way for a few decades but I do think that we are back on the right track to a certain degree. With the advent of subdivisions and HOA there are many obstacles to the new nature of chicken husbandry but just like everything else....ideas and norms will change due to peoples wants and perceptions. More people wanting them, means more people willing to stand up and say I want chickens in my backyard.
Not trying to be on a soap box today just trying to share some insight I suppose.
John

 

[Gresh]

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This is what separates us from the hippies.

Okay, now returning to non-humor, Thank you Gresh for your input. I do agree fully with all your points. I do have some things that I haven't talked about that your post made me think of. 1 of them is about Air Predators. We have Kestrels (Pigeonhawks), Goshawks (Accipiters), Marshawks (Harriers), Eagles (Goldens), and the odd chicken hawk, and I have discovered something about them: None of them will be successful during an over-water attack. Gos-, Mars- and Chickenhawks and Eagles are fully able to kill any size of Duck. But when the ducks are swimming during an attack, the birds-of-prey seem inept, or afraid of, killing waterfowl over water. The other point I thought of was about the chickens being afraid of us. My birds are not afraid of me, though some would certainly think so. But I prefer to use a different word: Reverence. My birds are very loyal, trusting enough to come inside their coop every night and not flee at the sight of me, but smart enough to realize what I am capable of doing to them. The seem to think I always have food for them, and come running up to my feet when they see me, but if I begin upon them, they will flee because they have NO IDEA what I'm trying to pick them up for. WHY is this GIANT trying to catch ME? And, altho' a few former-pet hens are very tame, the ones that were hen-raised will put up just the biggest squawck when I first pick them up, and the Rooster, even though I'm evidently 'harming his hen and could 'harm' him, comes valiantly running over to rescue the damsel in distress. But once I get the hen in a comforted position in my hands, and she stops fussing, my rooster backs off, seeing everything is okay. The Rooster trusts me enough to back off when everything is obviously okay, instead of continuing his defensive ingress and mauling me anyways, although, and this is good, he follows closely to see to it that his lady does not end up in the stew pot. My birds trust me, but know when I'm 'attacking' (catching them), and are always (except for 1 hen I don't like) easy to handle.

Haha, yeah, with all due respect to hippies, I just can't follow the logic--or rather absence of it--in their poultry farming ideas! Maybe humans lived better before the Flood on veggies, but chickens have been thriving on plant protein and animal protein for the past 6,000 years or so!

Hm, I didn't know birds of prey balked when confronted with an attack over water. I wish chickens could swim, in that case, then I'd just dig a pond for when the hawks came

My acreage has a lot of saplings and large bushes on it, so it provides a lot of shelter from hawks. We also have Ospreys here, but they are not a threat because 99% of their diet is fish, and we live near a lake where there is lots of fish. Thank God, I haven't seen any eagles yet!

Haha, sounds like your chickens have a good system. I prefer my chickens to be friendly enough for me to catch them easily, merely because I would hate for there to be a sudden emergency (like a dog on the premises) where I would have to round them up, and it take forever and possibly cost a few chicken lives. Of course, knowing me, I'd probably kill the dog before I rounded up the chickens.

I do, however, like how your chickens seem to be semi-independent of you. Mine are a little too much on the pet side (well, at least most of them. A couple of them are perfect: they're not too keen about being picked up, but will hang around me and obviously have some trust for me). I'm getting an Oriental gamecock soon that I am hoping to cross to either a gamehen or a dual-purpose hen. I would let these crosses be "semi-free" and would not spoil them as pets, but would interact enough that they, as you said it, have reverence for me

~Gresh~

 

[Gresh]

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There isn't a perfect bird out there. There hasn't been since Creation and there won't be until after the Second Coming. But still, although our human ruin-everything-we-tough-ness disallows perfection, we are called to, with His help, improve our birds as much as we can towards the like of those first two chickens, 6,000 some odd years ago....

On that note, although this doesn't have anything to do with stewardship, I had a thought a while ago about the original chickens. There are 4 'species' of junglefowl, and the hybrids they produce (2 types of 'Bengals' and the 'Bekisar') can reproduce themselves. Also, there is often DNA from several 'species' found in the same chicken (MI gene from Greys, ER Gene from Ceylons, etc..). All this evidence could be used to argue that the 4 'species' are just archaic breeds... And if that's true, perhaps the originally Created Junglefowl were totally different. Perhaps the chickens that walked off the Ark were from Noah's mixed flock. This is just something I find interesting to imagine...

Exactly right again

"Be perfect, as your Father is perfect," said Christ. Obviously, He did not mean literally (we'd all be hell-bound if we had to be perfect now), but I believe it was His way of saying: "Strive with My help to be as perfect as you can be in this life." I think this also applies to animal husbandry and stewardship. Breed as perfectly as you can to create the most perfect chicken you can, and if you have some irreconcilable flaws, just deal with it.

That is interesting info about the Junglefowl. I myself have often wondered how chicken genetics have progressed since the Fall and the Flood. There is such incredible diversity, yet there is such incredible similarity. Perhaps there was only one pair of chicken-like fowl at Creation, and this pair had so much genetic potential that they, over millennia, have produced the birds we have today.

Yet at the same time, there are some differences that make one wonder if there was more than one type of chicken at Creation. For example, the Oriental gamefowl breeds, which are said to be the most ancient domesticated breeds of chickens in existence, are very different from the Red Junglefowl in their structure and such. But Red Junglefowl can be crossed with Orientals, so it is impossible for there to have been two totally different "species" at the beginning of Creation. Otherwise, you could not cross them today.

Your theory about a mixed flock of chickens on the Ark sounds very plausible. It would also be another reason as to why we have such a diverse system of genetics in "modern" chickens. I have even thought that maybe the first two chickens at Creation were totally different from one another. This would also allow for much genetic diversity. One Christian scientist applied this principle even to Adam and Eve, saying that the physical differences among human races may be because of strikingly different physical characteristics in Adam and Eve; namely, that possibly one spouse was black, and the other white; and other physical differences.

Still, when all is said and done, one must confess that, whatever situations may have existed from creation to shortly after the Flood, God did create many living things with tremendous genetic diversity, even within species. (Dogs and cats could be an example, then obviously chickens).

If ever I think of these little earthly questions when one day I am lost in eternal bliss with God, maybe I will ask Him. After all, we'll have all eternity for these little matters to come up.

~Gresh~

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

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I agree.

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Another possibillity is that every time a new 'genetic mutation' appears, God just got bored and decided to create something new! I always think about this, and imagine what new variety might be underneath that hen! It's usually nothing new, but it's not rare at all to have unexplainable varieties appear in a line of even purebreds (Brown Splashes appear regularly in Blacks, Red Quills reappear in Duckwings, Crowwings appear in Duckwings.. etc.)

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This is generally my criteria for deciding what are Species, and what are simply Breeds. Whatever can be crossed to produce fertile hybrids are breeds of the same species. In that case:
All Junglefowl and Chickens are the same.
All Mallard breeds and Wild Mallards, along with Pintails, Baldpates, Gadwalls, Mottled Ducks, Black River Ducks and a dozen little rare 'species' are just varieties.
Greylag breeds and Whitefronted geese might be the same species. (I'm not sure, but they are so near-identical)
Arctic Char, Speckled and Lake Trout are breeds.
There are still half of the worlds original wild oxen still survive. (meaning 2 or 3 pre-domestic breeds, not just the now-lost Aurochsen)

And then, there are those who classify animals in a (I apologise to them) stupid manner:
Technically, there are no Canada Geese where I live. They are Cackling Geese. They look like Canadas, act like Canadas, sound like Canadas, so they must be a totally separate species. (

)

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Yes, that's right. Let's look at some familiar animals: (these are approximatations)
Chickens - 2900 colors (gasp!), and extreme physical variations. But stil, each is 100% chicken (not Evolution, as Darwin would argue )
Mallards - 90 colors, slight physical variety. All Mallards.
Turkeys - 40 colors, size variation. And again they're all Turkeys.
Greylags - 20 colors, bill and feather variations. All Greylags.
Peafowl - about 30 colors. All Peafowl.
Guineas. about 15 colors. All Guineas.
As you can see, You're right.

GreshIf ever I think of these little earthly questions when one day I am lost in eternal bliss with God, maybe I will ask Him. After all, we'll have all eternity for these little matters to come up.

[/quote :


Yes I doubt these little matters are the few things we are told we will never know.

Thanks for your input in this thread, Gresh. I appreciate it.​

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

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Yeah, my main point through out the giant paragraph you responded to was that most of my birds were desirably smart, er, discerning, about even me.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

'Bump'...

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Yeah, I shot myself in the foot with this matter. There are a good many conifers near my little old banny coop. First, let me explain that this was back when I had an inferior flock, and when the (Cowardous) Rooster and his (overly trusting, idotic) hens roosted in the branches of the nearest spruce. Fearing that they would be too defenceless and stupid to evade predation, and they were not hardy, so I feared about the worsening frosts killing them, so, in their defence, I martyred the lower-half branches on all the near trees. My birds, can fly {-- or --} really nicely, but can only get about 3 or 4 ft. up. So, that stopped those birds from roosting in the branches.... Later, er, Now, I have a hardy, frost tolerant, tough flock, that could roost succefully without problems, that not only can't roost, but can't hide under the branches. Inferior stock seems capable of messing up even more than just it's own kind.....

Luckily, there are still some conifers and brambles around that provide descent cover for them, and they spend most of their time near our 'future-milkmaid', a nice Dexter heifer, and I doubt that a little kestrel, or worse yet, an eagle or marshawk is going to risk flying underneath 350 lbs. of hooves and horns to get their Sunday Lunch. They also spend alot of time in her stall, or in the adjacent Turkey pen, embezzling corn from the turkeys and water from the heifer. Which reminds me, that makes them a little smarter, too. No doubt they probably can smell the corn in the turkey pen, and the Tom doesn't apparently like them taken his corn, so they have to be sneaky. And I used to like piling up dirt and straw around below the door to the pen (that's how the bannies get in), so, if they're hungry for corn, they have to spend 1/2 an hour scratching a tunnel out (Musculature

), then have to wait for the right moment to get in (Patience

), then have to get in and out before the wrath or the turkeys comes upon them (Agility

)....

'Bump'

 

[NotAFarm]

I would like to think I am a "Steward" of the Icelandic chicken that has for hundreds of years been bred for hardiness, foraging ability, broodiness, self-reliance, etc. I did not "do the work" to create this example of what I think is an all-around quality homestead flock. I am benefitting from the generations of Icelanders that "did the work" of raising them to be what they are. There is no standard for them so many say they are not a "breed" but a "landrace". That's fine with me, they are all the things you mention above and I am not looking to "improve" them, just keep them from degenerating and keep their genetic diversity pure and alive.

A few notes on how I do things here:
I do use heated dog water dishes when temps require.....cuz I don't want to deal with frozen water a couple of times a day.
I do not use artificial lighting or heat lamps. I have overhead lights in the barn/coop but that is so I can see when I'm in there doing something.
I used an incubator to start eggs this past year and then gave as many as I could to whatever hen went broody. I used two Silver Laced Wyandotte hens to raise some of the chicks. The SLW were good mothers but I did notice that they "mother" the chicks longer than the two Icelandic hens did.
I only had two Icelandic hens to start with so every egg was precious to me to get hatched. I will not be using it next year since my two hens have provided me with 16 pullets, some of which are already laying.
I had a hen with 10 chicks that flew up to meet a diving hawk to protect her chicks. The rooster was else where with the rest of the flock so wasn't there to help her out. When I heard the commotion, I ran out and the hawk flew off. Momma was okay and all the chicks were hiding in the surrounding area under whatever bush, flower, grass, they could find. They stayed hidden until the hen settled down and called them out. This hen was brooder raised and I received her at age 6 weeks. This was not "taught" to her by "her chicken mom" but is purely instinct. This instinct and others are what is being lost, as you mentioned, with the "egg laying machines" that are being kept by many.
I started with two roosters. I kept number two separate with the SLWs until I had hatched some of the firsts chicks and then, due to the firsts aggressiveness, culled him. The second rooster is very well behaved and is great flock protector and provider. I have two cockerels from the first rooster who will stay as long as they behave themselves and one cockerel from my current rooster. Temperament is a prime goal within my flock. I have grandchildren who love the flock and any aggressive tendencies will not be tolerated here. I know that temperament is hereditary so we'll see how the sons and daughters of the first rooster do.

I'll be subscribing to this thread and watching to see what else is discussed. Thanks for starting it DaBh!!

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

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Something interesting to think of: There are guidelines of how to take care of our birds in the Bible! (well, sorta)
See, this is why God didn't make us like robots: so he could see who really loved him the most.
So how does that apply (if you haven't thought of it already)?
Whe we 'baby' or 'pamper' our birds, we're making them so we can't see which is the best for our purposes.

 

[Gresh]

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That is a very good point, practically theologically applicable (how's that for a mouthful?

) If God pampered us, we'd never be fit for His purposes. The pampered sheepdog will never guard sheep. The spoiled child will never obey. And the undisciplined Christian will never be a truly biblical example to the world, and will not understand nor experience all the good that God has to offer.

I agree: the Bible is primarily focused on God's dealings with man, but the Bible is also practical and applicable to temporal matters, even stewardship. Especially some of the agricultural laws God instituted for the Israelites, like letting the farming land rest every seven years. Then there is the command found in Proverbs that the Christian animal activist (if there is such a thing!

) loves to death: "The righteous man takes care of his animal, but the mercies of the wicked are cruel," (rough translation from memory).

I'm sure there's more, but that's all that's coming to me right now.

Sorry I haven't responded sooner to you. I have been busy with a research paper and have also been making preparations for my gamecock. I can't wait to get him!

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

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Interesting. I don't believe I've ever heard of that. (cough-cough- Genesis 1 -ahem). Seven years, eh? I'll have to remember that...