Breed Stewards Thread

[Ducks and Banny hens]

You have posted so much misinformation I don't know where to start. I show birds......my birds average life is around 10-12 years.......average. I would put them in the excellent status of all your points. I don't medicate or use any feed with medication in it. My birds are bulletproof for the most part. My medicine cabinet contains an ax. I don't have a freezer full of culls. Your show info seems to have been gleened from what you read on here. This place is really not typical of people who are serious about showing or breeding to SOP Standards. People do all kiinds of wierd breeding things here on BYC. None of that has anything to do with serious poultry showing.

Actually, most of what I've said has been 'gleened' from personal experience. Besides, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about people I know of in real life.

Thanks for "Warning" all the breeders here......maybe it would be best to "warn" the people who are bragging about all these strange management practices here on BYC and refrain from "bashing" the APA and SOP. You did use "bashing" didn't you?

I'm not trying to 'Bash' the SOP or APA, or anyone. Aren't my points legitimate?

I know that the Seramas are recognized by the ABA. Anyone who knows birds knows that the Serama is an ornamental bird and would never use it as a comparison to a utility birds. The other interesting thing you do not seem to know is that the Serama actually takes a good bit of time to judge. It requires that the bird be put into a "station" and also judged on a table.

I know that. But the smallest ones are considered the highest quality. Seramas are not hardy. Is that a coincidence? I doubt it. Seramas could be used for broodies, but they are too small to brood anything but Dutch, OEGB and other Serama eggs.

I am suspect of motives when people "bash" anything.

Alright, so if I am 'bashng' something, what would I get out of it?



Everyone is doing a great job of completely missing the point of this thread. What I don't understand is why everyone thinks I am against the SOP. I'm not. I'm against misinterpretation, which is common around here, and is dangerous. I respect the point of the SOP, but there are others out there who don't.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I can agree that misinterpretation is rampant on this site.

The Serama is fairly recent....recent in the poultry history.....to the US. It is an ornamental, it has no utility and it is only recognized by the American Bantam Assn....not the American Poultry Assn. Why would anyone pick a breed like that to compare to show birds? Ornamental breeds are just that....ornamental. They have no utility purpose.

When I have trouble with people missing the point I exam what I have said to find out why. Most of what I know is also gleened from experience. I show a lot, so I took exception to your comments since 99% of the people on this site are newbies and believe what they read here.

The experiences I related in my post are also from personal experiences of showing for 45 years. I don't know anyone who does the things you talk about and they don't do any of this crazy breeding you read about on BYC. Less than 1% of show people post on this site and they don't post anything about strange matings to make a bird that "looks" like some breed.

Walt.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

I can agree that misinterpretation is rampant on this site.

The Serama is fairly recent....recent in the poultry history.....to the US. It is an ornamental, it has no utility and it is only recognized by the American Bantam Assn....not the American Poultry Assn. Why would anyone pick a breed like that to compare to show birds? Ornamental breeds are just that....ornamental. They have no utility purpose.

When I have trouble with people missing the point I exam what I have said to find out why. Most of what I know is also gleened from experience. I show a lot, so I took exception to your comments since 99% of the people on this site are newbies and believe what they read here.

The experiences I related in my post are also from personal experiences of showing for 45 years. I don't know anyone who does the things you talk about and they don't do any of this crazy breeding you read about on BYC. Less than 1% of show people post on this site and they don't post anything about strange matings to make a bird that "looks" like some breed.

Walt.

Yes, I probably shouldn't have picked the Serama to use in my argument. Sorry about that. But there is still another point about the Serama -- why does it even exist? What I mean is, why are there breeds that are purely ornamental? Even Red Junglefowl can be used for brooding, Dutch and OEGBs lay eggs, Cornish bantams are a delicacy, Peafowl (which are considered ornamental) have great tasting meat, and so do Brahmas. Why wouldn't people prefer to breed bigger seramas, for useful broodiness, or for a Cornish-like feast (Seramas do have relatively large breasts) or select for wider frames the allow more egg laying (they would make perfect little canning eggs).This is what irks me -- the two most popular breeds of chicken in North America have only skin-deep value, or as pets. I don't mind pets, but breeding birds for nothing but a face value, seems, well, wasteful. Why not have pretty birds that work, instead of pretty birds that just eat food?

And again, I do apologize if I've caused hurt feelings and confusion, and I will go over my posts and try to find where the contraversy started, but, in all honesty, this thread has been well stressed in it's point, so there isn't much more to say. Until there is more to say, I'd just as soon let this thread die. Besides, there is another thread to post these types of thoughts on.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
Why do people keep parrots as pets? or snakes? or lap dogs? There are some breeds that are ornamental breeds rather than utility breeds. What is wrong with that? What if you don't eat eggs or chicken (you are a vegetarian)? Why would you still want chickens? Why have Yokohamas? Onagadori? Shokoku? Ohiki? long crowers? Why buy a piece of art work? A painting or a piece of pottery? After all, you can't eat art or pottery. In other words, the utility breeds are for a purpose but there are breeds here for the enjoyment of their long tails, their beauty, their long crows, etc. I have always regarded the bantams as ornamental rather than utility. Why have any of them? Chickens also did not start out as food when they were first domesticated. They were used solely for sport. Ornamental breeds are to enjoy looking at them, for their beauty, like a work of art. It is probably wasteful that I have paid what I have paid for some original paintings I own or my pottery (I have quite a collection) but I enjoy looking at the paintings, the pottery.

I simply do not get your point. You are not causing confusion or hurt feelings but instead, I think you are the one confused. You don't have to keep an animal just for food. Is your argument simply that it is wasteful to keep something for its beauty? Are you saying that is wasteful to buy something if you do not eat it? That surely seems to be your point. If so, I think you are on the wrong forum.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Why do people keep parrots as pets? or snakes? or lap dogs? There are some breeds that are ornamental breeds rather than utility breeds. What is wrong with that? What if you don't eat eggs or chicken (you are a vegetarian)? Why would you still want chickens? Why have Yokohamas? Onagadori? Shokoku? Ohiki? long crowers?

I do understand people keeping chickens (and the other creatures you listed) as pets. People grow attached to animals, and the critters become like one of the family. But I'm not talking about specific circumstances. I'm talking generally. Those people could have a flock of Welsummers or Pekins or Faverolles, and, those breeds have utility, so practical poultrimen are drawn to them, as well. My point is why should a whole demographic of birds suffer lack of utility because of one use that all of the other breeds already serve? Why not help the breed by also expanding utility quality, attracting those (which is 90% of us) who use there birds for practical uses. All off the long-tails are good setters, except the Yoko, which I think only gets to 75%, and some longcrowers are eaten (which I know doesn't suit everybody). This is part of being a steward. There is nothing good about having something 100% pointless. Certain breeds show the pathetic signs of abused stewardship, having been so frivolously bred that there are alot of them that, aren't good. I typically believe there is practical value in everything, but I'm still trying to figure out what that is concerning Seramas, OEGBs, Rosecombs, Japs, and Sultans. So far the only thing I've come up with for utility is pillow feathers. I'm not trying to 'bash' these breeds either. Like I said, they make just as good pets as any other chicken, but it bothers me to know that there is nothing more to them than that.

 

[ST3PH3N]

Well, I've just spent an hour reading this two year old thread and I was enjoying myself until it unfortunately lost it's focus and derailed. Now it's 12:30 AM but I'd like to leave my thoughts before I retire so if another comes along behind me they can leave this thread on a positive note.

All species adapt to their environment through natural selection. We can selectively breed birds, but natural selection is still at work regardless of our efforts. If we take a high mountain species, such as a ptarmigan, to sea level we have to go through a lot of effort to keep it alive in an environment it is not suited. As soon as we change the bird's environment we have changed the forces that have shaped it into what it is/was. Now the bird is in captivity, the flighty ones die of fright or refuse to eat or reproduce. Captivity favours fat sedentary birds that don't spook easily. The warm insulating plumage that was once a necessity is now a hot annoyance at sea level and the list goes on and on. Now we as stewards have our work cut out for us if we are to keep this bird in a state of readiness for reintroduction, nature itself is working against us. Now throw in a few careless years without proper selective breeding and a new generation who doesn't know what a ptarmigan is and you pretty much end up where we are today. The Standard of Perfection makes a valiant effort to describe what the individual breed should be and has to rely on physical appearance for obvious descriptive reasons but falls short due to personal interpretation. A function where people preserving the breed can go to be critiqued by a trained eye is very beneficial for each breed and should be encouraged for many more reasons. If we can maintain a bird's physical appearance at least, we can return it back to it's natural homeland and after a few generations there be successfully reintroducing birds back into the wild. If we have failed in maintaining a birds outward appearance it really doesn't matter how wild it acts, in my opinion it is no longer the same bird and we have failed as stewards.

Okay, so I've taken an hour writing all that to say this: find a breed that best suits both your needs and your environment.


Goodnight folks, there is a lot more I'd like to say but I'll leave it at that and we'll see if this thread is indeed dead and buried, I'd rather not waste my time if it is.
be encouraged,

-Stephen

 

[Maggiesdad]

I've learned a lot since this thread fizzled.

The OP came and went.
There is much information on the web that's just not true.
It bodes well for the serious newbie to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Just because I like chickens and some eggs have hatched for me doesn't make be a breeder or a steward.
Chickens are different things for different people... hence so many breeds, types, and colors.
Time moves on.