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Thank you Randi - I'm so glad that you are enjoying them !! Would love to see some updated photos !!
Thank you Randi - I'm so glad that you are enjoying them !! Would love to see some updated photos !!
Breeders/Sellers, Why Are You Stopping?
- Thread starter PepsNick
- Start date
I sell eggs and chicks, and have considered stopping, but will probably continue for at least awhile longer. However, I see problems on both sides of this fence.
Many buyers - even those on this site who you think are experienced, will complain about infertile eggs on shipped-eggs. They should know better, but few seem to. It also seems that almost no one is aware of possible incubator issues, or that an eggs loses water mass as it gets older, which affects hatch rate. When I ship chicks, it's my fault if they get sick a couple weeks later - they want to know about what diseases I have - automatically assuming the problem came from me. I think it's human instinct to look for blame elsewhere before evaluating what what may have gone wrong with their procedures. When you're dealing with live animals and all levels of inexperience, there are going to be issues. Dealing with these is not for everyone.
Sellers can often put buyers into defensive posture even before receiving the shipment. I know I've received enough poorly packed eggs that were misrepresented to be leery about anyone's claims. As a buyer, I absolutely hate the claim about having no control over the shipment once it's "in the post office's hands". That's just garbage and a possible sign that the seller is not going to put in the extra effort to do a good job. I've shipped a couple thousand hatching eggs and not one has ever been received broken. I put in extra care, attention and money into packaging to make sure of this and I guarantee unbroken eggs with all hatching-egg shipments. It's really very easy to pack correctly, but time consuming and expensive, which is why I think most don't want to bother. I guarantee live chicks even if the post office takes an extra day or two to deliver them. If I only ship chicks that just hatched and have enough experience to know what weather and shipping conditions will work, then I should be willing to guarantee it. It amazes me that some still put all the risk on the buyer - which is a great way of saying - "I don't need to try that hard, since the risk is all yours". Another problem area are photographs that misrepresent the color of hatching eggs. I really dislike photos of the best colored eggs the seller ever had. I want photos of what I can expect to receive. So few sellers do this, any it's a great way to disappoint a customer the moment they open the package.
The jist of my post is that both buyers and sellers can be either good or bad. Good experiences often require that both are from the "good" side of the equation. Unfortunately, that happens less frequently than the opposite. Hopefully this site will help alleviate these problems through education. If buyers and sellers would use reasonableness as a guide, then experiences would be a lot better for both.
Many buyers - even those on this site who you think are experienced, will complain about infertile eggs on shipped-eggs. They should know better, but few seem to. It also seems that almost no one is aware of possible incubator issues, or that an eggs loses water mass as it gets older, which affects hatch rate. When I ship chicks, it's my fault if they get sick a couple weeks later - they want to know about what diseases I have - automatically assuming the problem came from me. I think it's human instinct to look for blame elsewhere before evaluating what what may have gone wrong with their procedures. When you're dealing with live animals and all levels of inexperience, there are going to be issues. Dealing with these is not for everyone.
Sellers can often put buyers into defensive posture even before receiving the shipment. I know I've received enough poorly packed eggs that were misrepresented to be leery about anyone's claims. As a buyer, I absolutely hate the claim about having no control over the shipment once it's "in the post office's hands". That's just garbage and a possible sign that the seller is not going to put in the extra effort to do a good job. I've shipped a couple thousand hatching eggs and not one has ever been received broken. I put in extra care, attention and money into packaging to make sure of this and I guarantee unbroken eggs with all hatching-egg shipments. It's really very easy to pack correctly, but time consuming and expensive, which is why I think most don't want to bother. I guarantee live chicks even if the post office takes an extra day or two to deliver them. If I only ship chicks that just hatched and have enough experience to know what weather and shipping conditions will work, then I should be willing to guarantee it. It amazes me that some still put all the risk on the buyer - which is a great way of saying - "I don't need to try that hard, since the risk is all yours". Another problem area are photographs that misrepresent the color of hatching eggs. I really dislike photos of the best colored eggs the seller ever had. I want photos of what I can expect to receive. So few sellers do this, any it's a great way to disappoint a customer the moment they open the package.
The jist of my post is that both buyers and sellers can be either good or bad. Good experiences often require that both are from the "good" side of the equation. Unfortunately, that happens less frequently than the opposite. Hopefully this site will help alleviate these problems through education. If buyers and sellers would use reasonableness as a guide, then experiences would be a lot better for both.
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In my case--it's the hotter temperatures, dropping egg production, building up my own flocks and preparing to have a child.
I still have eggs available but on a limited basis and not from all breeds...
In my case--it's the hotter temperatures, dropping egg production, building up my own flocks and preparing to have a child.
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That is ridiculous - chickens are so undervalued. You couldn't even buy a dead supermarket fryer for that price.
And people will pay $300 for a miniature dashshund puppy... give me a chicken any day.
Um, I mean sell me a chicken any day.
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I'm with you there. @MedicineMan does come across as a little obnoxious here
... Seriously, any of us who keep rare chickens need to keep an open mind and our breed's survival in mind... the more breeders we can get interested, and the more secondary breeding sites we can refer to in the event of a catastrophe, the safer our breed's future will be.
Exactly....am I really picky about who I sell eggs to? No...birds on the other==on the rare occasion I sell one--I price them accordingly and just hope that the new owner will do good with them. OR, they are eaten if they have a fault that's too serious to risk passing on (99% of the time, that's a nasty tempered roo!)
That is ridiculous - chickens are so undervalued. You couldn't even buy a dead supermarket fryer for that price.
And people will pay $300 for a miniature dashshund puppy... give me a chicken any day.
Um, I mean sell me a chicken any day.
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I'm with you there. @MedicineMan does come across as a little obnoxious here
- Thread starter
- #65
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Great post!
What would happen if breeders doubled their prices? I know that may be a simplistic question. But I would personally spend more money for hatching eggs or chicks if I really wanted them. Writing an ad, marking and collecting eggs and storing in proper temp and humidity, breeding the birds each year, making selections, cleaning pens and nesting boxes, just daily care of extra birds for breeding, packing up the eggs, getting the correct address on the box, taking them to the post office, standing in line (usually), buying tape and packing materials, etc. Frankly, how long does that take per box sent? Why shouldn't breeders get $30+ an hour for that specialized work? (I think $50, but I think a lot of people might call me crazy for that.) Again, maybe that's a simplistic question. But I can't see selling hatching eggs unless it's on some level rewarding monetarily. Most breeders' time and expertise is worth more than what little they get for a batch of eggs they ship.
Maybe a breeders' code is that you give away two dozen a year to people who are interested in the breed (as a way to support the breed, depending on breed) and then the rest, you sell for a price where you are paid for your expertise and effort. Too many breeders are getting taken advantage of.
Hint to egg sellers: If you've already warned buyers of dangers of shipping eggs and that they really need to just consider the money lost when they send it to you, then don't just fall all over yourself to send replacement eggs. I'm just saying this all friendly like, not criticizing, because I am on your side. Story: In the two cases where I had super bad results (bad results at candling and really bad cracking in an egg shipment and no eggs even did anything at candling), when I merely informed the seller of results without asking for replacements or money back, both of them offered to ship me replacements immediately. Okay, that's great. And I appreciate it. But I didn't ask for it because I understand the risks of shipping. I'm not sure who should bear the brunt of the loss, but I was shocked that they both offered to send me replacements without me even asking. I figured the comments about the eggs are out of the seller's control when they are left in the postman's hands as being set in stone. Just a thought. (In one case I declined and paid for another box of eggs, and the other case, I took them up on the offer.)
Because I thought breeders have birds for a hobby and not to make money off of? It does make sense to wanna make some money to recoupe for feed, bedding, and etc.
But if breeders only want to get money out of it then I think I'm done buying from breeders then
Umm... Do some real reading before you make that assumption, Steven.
And, do you buy from breeders anyway? I think that most of them really deserve the money.
Great post!
What would happen if breeders doubled their prices? I know that may be a simplistic question. But I would personally spend more money for hatching eggs or chicks if I really wanted them. Writing an ad, marking and collecting eggs and storing in proper temp and humidity, breeding the birds each year, making selections, cleaning pens and nesting boxes, just daily care of extra birds for breeding, packing up the eggs, getting the correct address on the box, taking them to the post office, standing in line (usually), buying tape and packing materials, etc. Frankly, how long does that take per box sent? Why shouldn't breeders get $30+ an hour for that specialized work? (I think $50, but I think a lot of people might call me crazy for that.) Again, maybe that's a simplistic question. But I can't see selling hatching eggs unless it's on some level rewarding monetarily. Most breeders' time and expertise is worth more than what little they get for a batch of eggs they ship.
Maybe a breeders' code is that you give away two dozen a year to people who are interested in the breed (as a way to support the breed, depending on breed) and then the rest, you sell for a price where you are paid for your expertise and effort. Too many breeders are getting taken advantage of.
Hint to egg sellers: If you've already warned buyers of dangers of shipping eggs and that they really need to just consider the money lost when they send it to you, then don't just fall all over yourself to send replacement eggs. I'm just saying this all friendly like, not criticizing, because I am on your side. Story: In the two cases where I had super bad results (bad results at candling and really bad cracking in an egg shipment and no eggs even did anything at candling), when I merely informed the seller of results without asking for replacements or money back, both of them offered to ship me replacements immediately. Okay, that's great. And I appreciate it. But I didn't ask for it because I understand the risks of shipping. I'm not sure who should bear the brunt of the loss, but I was shocked that they both offered to send me replacements without me even asking. I figured the comments about the eggs are out of the seller's control when they are left in the postman's hands as being set in stone. Just a thought. (In one case I declined and paid for another box of eggs, and the other case, I took them up on the offer.)
Because I thought breeders have birds for a hobby and not to make money off of? It does make sense to wanna make some money to recoupe for feed, bedding, and etc.
But if breeders only want to get money out of it then I think I'm done buying from breeders then
Umm... Do some real reading before you make that assumption, Steven.
And, do you buy from breeders anyway? I think that most of them really deserve the money.
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Ive stopped selling eggs for the summer, and am not sure if Ill pick up this fall. I sell eggs now for eating, and sell everything the girls produce. No, its not as much as hatching eggs, but the stress level is zero. And people just love the eggs. It makes enough to keep the girls in goodies.
I have marans, but I dont sell marans eggs, because I dont want to hear that the eggs arent dark enough, or the bird arent perfect enough. I have Ameraucanas, but I dont want to hear the eggs arent blue enough or the birds arent perfect enough. Probably sounds like a cop out, but the perfect bird or egg is impossible to find, and Im not sure I want to be put up to impossible expectations. I dont produce show birds, I want to produce good quality birds that fit their SOP, and lay lots of pretty eggs, and can free range with the best of them. Show birds dont fit into that equation; I want a good farm bird.
The last several dozen hatching eggs I sold because people wanted them bad enough to badger me. Its disappointing to me to hear people not having good hatching rates; I feel badly because I want people to get a good hatch for their money. Then theres the poor gal who got 11 eggs to hatch, and 10 were roos!!! I about gave up right there.
I dont know what Ill do this fall; right now is a nice break not to have to get up at the crack of dawn and box up eggs.
I have marans, but I dont sell marans eggs, because I dont want to hear that the eggs arent dark enough, or the bird arent perfect enough. I have Ameraucanas, but I dont want to hear the eggs arent blue enough or the birds arent perfect enough. Probably sounds like a cop out, but the perfect bird or egg is impossible to find, and Im not sure I want to be put up to impossible expectations. I dont produce show birds, I want to produce good quality birds that fit their SOP, and lay lots of pretty eggs, and can free range with the best of them. Show birds dont fit into that equation; I want a good farm bird.
The last several dozen hatching eggs I sold because people wanted them bad enough to badger me. Its disappointing to me to hear people not having good hatching rates; I feel badly because I want people to get a good hatch for their money. Then theres the poor gal who got 11 eggs to hatch, and 10 were roos!!! I about gave up right there.
I dont know what Ill do this fall; right now is a nice break not to have to get up at the crack of dawn and box up eggs.
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who does this guy think he is?
who does this guy think he is?
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who does this guy think he is?
This has already been played out, you're late to the party. It turns out that most people agreed with me.
who does this guy think he is?
This has already been played out, you're late to the party. It turns out that most people agreed with me.
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Because I thought breeders have birds for a hobby and not to make money off of? It does make sense to wanna make some money to recoupe for feed, bedding, and etc.
But if breeders only want to get money out of it then I think I'm done buying from breeders then
Umm... Do some real reading before you make that assumption, Steven.
And, do you buy from breeders anyway? I think that most of them really deserve the money.
What assumption? I never accused anyone here.
Yes, actually I do. I applaud breeders for wanting to save rare and endangered breeds. Will I pay $100 for an egg or chick? No. Maybe a full grown chicken though.
Because I thought breeders have birds for a hobby and not to make money off of? It does make sense to wanna make some money to recoupe for feed, bedding, and etc.
But if breeders only want to get money out of it then I think I'm done buying from breeders then
Umm... Do some real reading before you make that assumption, Steven.
And, do you buy from breeders anyway? I think that most of them really deserve the money.
What assumption? I never accused anyone here.
Yes, actually I do. I applaud breeders for wanting to save rare and endangered breeds. Will I pay $100 for an egg or chick? No. Maybe a full grown chicken though.
As a buyer, here are some hints that have helped us have success:
When you receive eggs, note if the box has been damaged at all - especially around the corners. Candle each egg. If the air sack is floating around all over the place, the membrane has broken and that egg will not develop. THIS IS NOT THE SHIPPER'S FAULT! This is from rough handling, or other poor shipping conditions. There is really no sense in putting these eggs in the incubator, they will just rot.
Take the remaining eggs and incubate them for 7-10 days and candle. Count your blessings if one out of twelve eggs is developing. Incubate the rest of the way and just leave them the heck alone in there! I think 99% of incubation failure comes because we all mess around too much. Once I get the temperature right, the only reason I ever look at the incubator is to check water levels, and I do a 7 day candling just to make sure I'm not incubating a bunch of duds. (I actually do this for two reasons - the other reason is so we know sooner rather than later if we're having a fertility/vigor issue in the eggs we set - but that's not related to shipped eggs because shipped eggs have been through so much already, you're rather lucky to get 10% to fryer stage often).
I really don't like buying eggs because it's a huge gamble. If I buy chicks, I expect almost all of them to live (90%+ in good shipping conditions). However, buying eggs is an entirely different business.
Also, I wish more breeders offered started pairs or trios, and more buyers were willing to pay the cost for those birds. I would SO MUCH RATHER buy just three or four started pairs, save a ton of money and have higher quality birds for it. Instead, we've got to buy chicks or hatching eggs, hatch and brood them, cull out obvious no-nos, raise them to a stage we can really cull, etc etc etc. With the price of feed around here, it's costing around $10 (and up) to raise a bird to about 6-7 months, which is still a baby baby as far as the Orpingtons go. If we spend $5/chick (usually more) x 25 chicks = $125 + shipping (usually around $20) = $145. Say we raise 20 of those chicks to that 6-7 month mark, that's $200 in feed and housing! So now we're up to $345 for those 20 chicks. We might end up keeping 2-3 as breeders if they are really nice. That's $115 per bird.
But, if we buy say two dozen hatching eggs for around $50 (including shipping - we got a deal
) and none hatch, we're out $50 and nothing to show for it but more frustration. Or we might get four or five good strong chicks to hatch, we spend $50 in feed on them, and we're up to $100 with only five birds to choose from... If we kept even one of those five (still not the 1/10 norm) we're still up to at and over $100 per bird.
SO. Would we rather buy a nice trio for $150 + $60 shipping? You bet your buttons! Not only would we be saving money, but the space, time and labor of raising chicks!
On another note, I believe we got shipped a batch of cull chicks here recently. I'm not saying that all the birds in that breeding program are bad - on the contrary, he's got too many good reviews for that to be true, but our situation was handled about as badly as it could be.
So where does that leave you? If I had enough birds to not buy again, I certainly wouldn't. Unfortunately for the betterment of the breed, we must continue to buy and sell and trade genetics. For those of you stopping selling because you're too worried about birds falling into amateur hands - where does that leave your breed? I'm sorry to say, but all professionals were amateurs first, including you.
To those buyers that complain about poor hatches.... ever heard that old saying "don't count your chickens before they hatch?"... Sound advice if you ask me!
When you receive eggs, note if the box has been damaged at all - especially around the corners. Candle each egg. If the air sack is floating around all over the place, the membrane has broken and that egg will not develop. THIS IS NOT THE SHIPPER'S FAULT! This is from rough handling, or other poor shipping conditions. There is really no sense in putting these eggs in the incubator, they will just rot.
Take the remaining eggs and incubate them for 7-10 days and candle. Count your blessings if one out of twelve eggs is developing. Incubate the rest of the way and just leave them the heck alone in there! I think 99% of incubation failure comes because we all mess around too much. Once I get the temperature right, the only reason I ever look at the incubator is to check water levels, and I do a 7 day candling just to make sure I'm not incubating a bunch of duds. (I actually do this for two reasons - the other reason is so we know sooner rather than later if we're having a fertility/vigor issue in the eggs we set - but that's not related to shipped eggs because shipped eggs have been through so much already, you're rather lucky to get 10% to fryer stage often).
I really don't like buying eggs because it's a huge gamble. If I buy chicks, I expect almost all of them to live (90%+ in good shipping conditions). However, buying eggs is an entirely different business.
Also, I wish more breeders offered started pairs or trios, and more buyers were willing to pay the cost for those birds. I would SO MUCH RATHER buy just three or four started pairs, save a ton of money and have higher quality birds for it. Instead, we've got to buy chicks or hatching eggs, hatch and brood them, cull out obvious no-nos, raise them to a stage we can really cull, etc etc etc. With the price of feed around here, it's costing around $10 (and up) to raise a bird to about 6-7 months, which is still a baby baby as far as the Orpingtons go. If we spend $5/chick (usually more) x 25 chicks = $125 + shipping (usually around $20) = $145. Say we raise 20 of those chicks to that 6-7 month mark, that's $200 in feed and housing! So now we're up to $345 for those 20 chicks. We might end up keeping 2-3 as breeders if they are really nice. That's $115 per bird.
But, if we buy say two dozen hatching eggs for around $50 (including shipping - we got a deal
SO. Would we rather buy a nice trio for $150 + $60 shipping? You bet your buttons! Not only would we be saving money, but the space, time and labor of raising chicks!
On another note, I believe we got shipped a batch of cull chicks here recently. I'm not saying that all the birds in that breeding program are bad - on the contrary, he's got too many good reviews for that to be true, but our situation was handled about as badly as it could be.
So where does that leave you? If I had enough birds to not buy again, I certainly wouldn't. Unfortunately for the betterment of the breed, we must continue to buy and sell and trade genetics. For those of you stopping selling because you're too worried about birds falling into amateur hands - where does that leave your breed? I'm sorry to say, but all professionals were amateurs first, including you.
To those buyers that complain about poor hatches.... ever heard that old saying "don't count your chickens before they hatch?"... Sound advice if you ask me!
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