BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[dfr1973]

I am going to speak frankly. That is how I speak, and this is by no means a criticism of you or anyone else. This is just a hobby.

I have shared what I have based on the title of the thread. That has been my mindset. My view of what that means is obviously different. My interests are different. Not better, just different. Frankly, I am only wasting a lot of time. I think that I have contributed as much as I can.

You have an interesting goal. I hope that you are successful, and that you enjoy the process. You should chart your process and progress and make that a contribution to this thread. I am sure that will be interesting to some.

Concerning your comments performance/waste, you will find that for your goals the comments are still relevant. Because you have an actual goal. Not an idea, a goal. If you continue with it for any length of time, that is if you enjoy the process enough, you will find yourself eliminating waste. You will make improvements, and some of it will be instinctive. You will find yourself trying to get better at it, and getting your birds better for it. That is eliminating waste, and pushing to get more efficient. The point is equally applicable here. Just because the goal is capons, does not change anything. That is if you are breeding the birds to be capons. My response to your response, LOL, is that you did not think about how the comment applied to you. Instead, you dismissed it as not applying to you.

George, please continue to speak frankly and plainly, especially with me. I have all the subtly and tact of a wrecking ball ... and tend to not pick up on subtle hints. Also, continue to chime in on this thread - sometimes it takes repetition to penetrate us young'uns' thick skulls.

Either that or several sets of push-ups ... if my posts come across with an "authoritative tone" that is army training seeping through and not experience.

As to the bolded part: It sounds like I need to mull over it for a few days before shooting my "mouth" off. Or maybe I need to wait until I've raised up some capons to see and feel (and eventually taste) the differences you speak of. Or perhaps I need to wait until I've grown out capons that I have bred myself. I do have one very nice big boy from Luanne that will not be eaten for a good four years - he'll be one of my breeding roosters and I named him already (Azar, like the regional restaurant chain up in NE Indiana). He isn't bright and flashy, being a black phase BLRW, but he is nice and solid underneath the fluffy feathers.

The Wyandottes I bought from Luanne are about 7 weeks old now, and that boy has been noticeably bigger than the other three cockerels for two weeks now.

Taller, wider, rounder, and overall looks more mature. Next year, I will find out if he sires chicks that grow like he is.

If not, then I'll have several more years of eating the scrawny cockerels and slow capons, along with a rather large laying flock. The capons aren't my ultimate goal ... I want nice big healthy beautiful breeders. The fryers, capons, and layers are the by-products or also-rans or culls. I just want them to be worth the effort here.

I hope this is coherent enough today. Some days I have more difficulty expressing my thoughts than other days. Keep questioning and challenging me - I don't want anyone to feel as though I steamrolled y'all here, because I am here to learn just as much as anyone else.

 

[Our Roost]

This a big subject matter. Production if used in the context of numbers means more and not less! EGGS AND OR MEAT.
Lets talk eggs and what I have learned in the last almost 5 years raising chickens.- A number factor of how well and how many eggs a person can expect from a particular breed is available in data form. Color of egg and size are also available. If you truly have a market to sell lots of eggs, exploring the better egg layers is important. Winter time can be a down time for egg production and some breeds continue laying well during the winter months. 2 breeds come to mind when you mention year round egg laying production. Those are the black sex link and the orpington breed. Depending on quality of stock these 2 can produce good quantities of eggs yearly both in summer and winter. I am sure I may be challenged on this statement but facts are facts.
Now lets talk meat birds, weight and dual purpose utility birds.- Consistant repeatable size to table within a given time frame and growth rate with a minimal feed expense that is flavorful is what we all want and desire. This isnt eye candy, its a utility breed for meat purposes and not showing quality! All hens lay eggs so we can assume dual purpose means meat and eggs? Roosters dont lay eggs so I dont call them dual purpose! They can weigh more and are very edible but not dual purpose. Basically speaking, a breed described as dual prpose means it was developed for eggs along with consumption. Not all chickens taste good or carry enough weight to make a decent meal! Hence they are not categorized as dual purpose.
Utility breeding.- Old time farmers did it best! They bred birds for their needs and for the climate they lived in. You can definitely take your hats off to them for some of the breeds we have to date! The Cornish x has been the worlds best supermarket chicken for ages. It is and has been a production breed for eons it seems. Explore more on utility breeding, outcrossing, and crossbreeding along with other techniques. A good dual purpose breed may suffice for your production goals or maybe even just your homestead. But you may find adventure to create your own!

The last comment posted on here was about deep litter methods. I started with a dirt floor coop for the first couple of years. Damp wet mess was what I had to clean out each and every spring! I now have a cement floor with a drain. Maintenance drove me to my senses and eased my labor efforts. I still use straw as a base but it is so much easier and cleaner to remove. In the spring, I hose out the coop floor and any pesky mites and lice along with it down the drain. Yes I spray also as a preventative. The run area is another concern. It can also be a high maintenance area. I will take a bale of straw and let the chickens spread it around and scratch through it for a couple of weeks and then rake it up and compost it. Surprizingly it helps to be an absorbent and helps pick up the chicken poo! So do some thinking and try to keep it simple. Never take on more than you can manage or maintain!

 

[RedRidge]

 
I think that would be the difference between a managed flock and one that is not managed.  Today's trend is that more~ and higher protein~ food equals good flock care and nothing could be further from the truth. 

A chicken can only process so much protein before organ failure sets in, just like in a human, but far faster....they are just not equipped to ingest high proteins on a daily basis for any length of time.  The high protein they receive out on free range in the form of bugs, grubs, lizards, snakes, etc. is combined with a lot of crude fiber as well, so it balances out.  No one seems to care about balance any longer. 

Finding the right protein balance has been one of the more difficult things for us.  Trying to have a truly dual-purpose bird that can put on muscle to be eaten, but not getting it too high so they build up too much internal fat has been challenging.  We think we have a good system going now, but with our original birds, we fed them higher protein for longer periods and they had more fat on them when we butchered that we have not been seeing for the last couple of years since we changed up the feed. 

One of the things moat commonly forgotten when discussing protein for poultry is that they are NOT herbivores. They require animal protein. Even though we rotationally free range ours 9 months if the year, so provide a consistent source of animal protein we feed BSF year round. The BSF are fed fresh in the summer months and frozen for winter feeding. Yes, I do feed them by weight... because counting them would be insane. LOL. And yes, I do know how many are in a lb. Call me anal. ;-)

 

[bramblefir]

I've finally got caught up on the thread! We've had a long patch of nice weather and have been working on outdoor projects while we can. We're working on a lumber list for a new coop now. My husband wants the flock out of the barn and in a separate area.

The Welsummer hen has recovered well from her small bumblefoot infection. The other hen, a Barred Rock, was recovering well. Unfortunately one morning I came into the coop to discover her on the ground, fluffed and lethargic. I don't know what kind of wild party went on in the coop that night, but she had a compound fracture of her wing and I put her down immediately.

I've adjusted my orders for this year (decreasing the number of chicks and breeds) and have ordered a pair of geese. This will likely be my last time to order chicks for a long, long time. I think between what I'm getting and what I have I'll have all genetics I want to play with. Although I sometimes find myself thinking about trying to make a LF Silkie by crossing the bantams to the large Asiatic breeds... How hard is it to get a bantam bred up to a large size?

My Black Langshan hen went broody and is sitting on 16 eggs due to hatch on the 26th. I've also set eggs in the incubator for a March 7th hatch date. Interestingly, all of the eggs from my RC Brown Leghorn have turned out to be infertile. She spends a good bit of time ranging away from the rest of the flock, so I suspect she's avoiding all 3 cocks. Fertility is excellent for all of the other hens though.

 

[Beer can]

My SLW have almost quit laying. Just cold here getting into tje single digits some nights and have several in molt currently on top of it. Getting about 6 eggs a day from 21 hens. My other flock all the hens are still laying. Someone suggested using paprika to boost laying, what do you think and how would I add it to their diet?

I've actually heard ground cayenne pepper, don't know if it works. Light in the coop will keep them laying all winter. The ones I have now have been laying good enough without light, just been busting ice every day. I put a light over my RIRs water dish to keep it thawed out yrs ago, and every one of them laid right straight through winter. The light was far enough away from their roost that I don't think it bothered their sleeping, had it on 24hrs a day. Some people put theirs on a timer.

 

[Beer can]

@Our Roost "Never take on more than you can manage or maintain!"
I believe that's the key to the dry litter method, my coop is large for the amount of birds I have, plus they are free ranged most the year. My coop stays dry. I have 25 plus chickens ordered and plan on trippling the size of the coop. With our subzero winters the coop must stay dry.

 

[Shellz]

@Our Roost "Never take on more than you can manage or maintain!"
I believe that's the key to the dry litter method, my coop is large for the amount of birds I have, plus they are free ranged most the year. My coop stays dry. I have 25 plus chickens ordered and plan on trippling the size of the coop. With our subzero winters the coop must stay dry.

My favorite quote from Our Roost. I cull as heavily as I can & retain only the number of birds (best birds) necessary to winter-over. I have an 8'X12' open air coop that's plenty roomy for my 15 large fowl. Beer Can, you must have similar temps there in N.Y. to ours up here. I thought last week would be the end of the 'cold snap', but no such luck.

All my hens/pullets took some time off during the winter - some more than others. 2 weeks off minimum & once the days got longer, production got better. I don't heat or use a light in the coop - I like to keep things simple. I can usually bank up eggs for those times when the hens do go on strike.

Just coming into my 6th year raising various poultry - 2 years raising Malines. Always learning & enjoying the journey.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I have an 8'X12' open air coop that's plenty roomy for my 15 large fowl.

uhhh...is this just the "indoor" space, with a larger run/free range? 'cuz I have 4 large fowl in a 8.5'x8.5' three-sided shed with an 8.5'x20' run and I think they look crowded. I keep ~ 4-6" of dry bedding in the shed, scoop under the roost about once a week, and still every few months I need to rotate the birds out, clean their barn and rake and replant the run. The barn stays dry, but it all gets smelly. I also have a pair in a 10'x10' pen on grass that I move about once a week at this time of year.

I happen to agree with Beekissed that stocking rates are crucial to your flock's health. You can pour the wormers down your flock's throat, but that leads to poop full of chemicals that kill the beneficial life forms. Then the pathogens have no natural competition, and can overwhelm the system at first opportunity. Soil health is directly related to carrying capacity, and I believe that the appropriate stocking rate is essential to your flock's health.

Just my opinion.
Best wishes,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

If you don't mind a newbie question - what is the "peak of the growth curve", age wise? NH and Delawares are the two dual-purpose breeds that piqued my interest.

Growth curve is a term used to express the rate of growth and rate of decline. If you calculate the percentage gain weekly, on a chart, you will see it rapidly rise, then drop off. The peak of the growth curve is the point before rate of percentage gain begins to plummet. Different strains will look different on the chart. Some are rather flat, some are pretty sharp, some plateau, etc.
I use this expression because it describes adequately lbs. of feed per lb. of flesh. If they get to 75% of their weight at 14, 16, wks. etc. then we use twice as much feed to get a carcass that weights 10-15% more at 28wks etc.

The flatter the growth curve, the less suitable they are for this purpose.

The goal is to get an adequate carcass as close to that peak as possible. It is easier said than done, but once an acceptable target is established, then the birds can be properly evaluated and the progress tracked. That target might be two or three weeks past the peak, but then we can make progress. We cannot make progress just waiting until they get big enough. We are at the mercy of the flock, and the flock is applying the pressure rather than the breeder. That is upside down, and backwards. That is how some breeds and strains ended up where they are at. An absence of pressure on the traits that made them productive. It is use it or lose it. It takes years to recover what has been lost over years. It is possible that it is not even recoverable at a certain point.

All this requires is a pair of hands, interest, a scale, observation, and a calendar. Different years will have slightly different results. Weather, seasons, etc. play a role.

Anyone serious about breeding for production has to become familiar with how they grow out. It is not just when, but how. That is if they are interested in the production of fowl meat. You have to have targets, and you have to evaluate them. Otherwise we are just playing pretend. Anyone can raise up chicks, and dress them when they get big. How do we know unless we know?

All of the above expressions and numbers are just illustrations.

 

[gjensen]

George, please continue to speak frankly and plainly, especially with me. I have all the subtly and tact of a wrecking ball ... and tend to not pick up on subtle hints. Also, continue to chime in on this thread - sometimes it takes repetition to penetrate us young'uns' thick skulls.

Either that or several sets of push-ups ... if my posts come across with an "authoritative tone" that is army training seeping through and not experience.

As to the bolded part: It sounds like I need to mull over it for a few days before shooting my "mouth" off. Or maybe I need to wait until I've raised up some capons to see and feel (and eventually taste) the differences you speak of. Or perhaps I need to wait until I've grown out capons that I have bred myself. I do have one very nice big boy from Luanne that will not be eaten for a good four years - he'll be one of my breeding roosters and I named him already (Azar, like the regional restaurant chain up in NE Indiana). He isn't bright and flashy, being a black phase BLRW, but he is nice and solid underneath the fluffy feathers.

The Wyandottes I bought from Luanne are about 7 weeks old now, and that boy has been noticeably bigger than the other three cockerels for two weeks now.

Taller, wider, rounder, and overall looks more mature. Next year, I will find out if he sires chicks that grow like he is.

If not, then I'll have several more years of eating the scrawny cockerels and slow capons, along with a rather large laying flock. The capons aren't my ultimate goal ... I want nice big healthy beautiful breeders. The fryers, capons, and layers are the by-products or also-rans or culls. I just want them to be worth the effort here.

I hope this is coherent enough today. Some days I have more difficulty expressing my thoughts than other days. Keep questioning and challenging me - I don't want anyone to feel as though I steamrolled y'all here, because I am here to learn just as much as anyone else.

Ask Luanne for advice for selecting through the first generation. She knows her birds. The faults and weaknesses, and she is honest about what she is dealing with. There is a lot to consider in a variety like that. It is a beautiful variety, but will not stay beautiful on it's own. I am assuming that you want to breed to improve the breed. That is no small task, but that is where the fun is.
It takes a couple generations just to get familiar with what you have, no matter who you are. It is just not what you are looking at, it is also what kind of offspring they are producing. Sometimes you do not get that male you need in the first batch, and you need to get another batch. Sometimes the breeder has a male they will not use that can help you what you need help with.


A color like that is a color that you will never quit learning no matter how long you live.

Chickens are a collection of traits and characteristics. You will become familiar with the minute details. They are the sum of their parts, and whether or not they are worth messing with five years from now is up to you. It could be best to be patient and evaluate them as whole. It could be that a complementary mating is in order.

This variety is not in the Standard, but the other laced varieties are. It would be worth getting to know their standard. For both color and type. Are they in the ABA standard? The British have done well with this color pattern. In other words, there are resources out there available to learn it. Angela would know. She has started with this variety, I think. Luanne would know. I can see good Wyandotte type, but I know very little about breeding that color.