BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[BGMatt]

The exact crosses are not entirely known but rumored to include Rhode Island Reds as well as White Leghorns (supposedly) and several other breeds. The egg production came from selective breeding. Simply being a Mediterranean breed does not mean you will have high production value, select breeding programs do. There is a big difference between a White Leghorn and a Brown leghorn in terms of eggs per year despite being the same 'breed' but different color and selection process.

The point is the egg production value of the Australorp isn't what it used to be because other breeds have filled the role of commercial egg layers eating less feed per egg. No longer used for commercial egg laying, the selection specific to that purpose isn't as strong instead focusing on the physical traits. I doubt you will find BAs with the production value they had in the 1920-1930 period.

But that's what I was getting at, you can easily find an Australorp today that lays 300+ eggs a year, any hatchery bird will do that, or come awfully close. The point I was making was they won't look like Australorps according to the Standard, which in the spirit of this thread is fine. I would bet a significant amount of money that the record setting birds didn't look like Standard Australorps either. My athlete analogy is a carefully considered one, an athlete can train to be a weight lifter or a distance runner, but not both. In the same way that a chicken flock can over time be bred for great meat or egg production, but not both. Dual purpose breeds were developed to bridge the gap, give a decent number of eggs and good meat. You can take any of the dual purpose breeds and breed them for extreme or the other, as was pointed out with the Sussex.

You simply cannot paint with a broad brush either. White "Leghorns" will out produce a Light Brown Leghorn, but that's simply because the "Leghorns" of today are actually hybrids that have been selectively bred for it commercially. If you were to take Leghorns regardless of color from different breeders and use the same selection criteria you would get similar results regardless of color, some of the more unusual less popular colors would take more work simply because of the numbers game. I have raised both White and Light Brown Leghorns (non-commercial) and after a couple years egg production was identical. Now working with Buff, and will be using the same selection criteria and they will produce the same.

That last paragraph is really true of any breed that doesn't come from a commercial source. Production aspects are what you make, which I guess is what this thread is all about. Taking what you have an elevating their production standards.

 

[gjensen]

I think we get off track when we discuss the production characteristics of pure breeds. We tend to withdraw to one side or the other and throw rocks, figuratively speaking.

It is a simple matter of economics. These birds were replaced by better performing and more efficient birds. It is that simple. All of our pure breeds were. They were left behind even when they were at their highest possible point concerning production.

The laying trials mentioned here taught us a lot concerning production genetics and methods etc. It is true that some specialized strains were developed to perform admirably well. These dual purpose birds ran into a dead end though. They were too large too be as efficient as the lighter layers that ate less, and produced as much or more. At the same time they were smaller than their counterparts, and not particularly good dual purpose birds.
These guys doing these selections had the resources and facilities to trap nest, raise thousands of birds, test a lot of males every year, and keep extensive records. No hobbyist could do that, less they are quite wealthy, and do not have to work. There is no profit in it now.
The golden years of pure breed production is gone. The commercial sector that selected these high achieving birds moved on to more efficient birds. It was never hobbyists that achieved these kinds of success. It takes too much.

Now these breeds are in the hands of hobbyists. The commercial sector has no interest in them. As hobbyist or hobby farmers or small farmers, we have to decide what we want in our birds. They are a belonging of ours and we do as we please. The genetic resources are still there to find or create a strain that more closely fits our personal ideals. If someone does not like the exhibition circle, which I have a hard time understanding, those birds are at least a genetic resource. A resource that would not be there if that hobby did not exist.
Heck the hatcheries can be a genetic resource, and for many breeds . . .they might not be here if not for the hatcheries. The hatcheries are not all bad either. Though I will add that many of the birds sold as one breed or another are hardly that breed at all anymore.

I get the disappointment in that many of the breeds we admire are not as productive as they should be. It is just not anyone's fault. There is no one to blame. If you do not use it, you lose it. And then it makes no economic sense to get to a large enough scale to get them to the extreme numbers again. If that made economic sense, and as motivating a money is, it would be getting done. Then you still are taking away the dual purpose qualities of the larger breeds to do it. It is an inevitable result of developing laying strains.

If someone is interested in developing a strain to be whatever it is they want it to be, then go for it. It would be a life long challenge, and maybe a rewarding challenge.

I cannot help but notice that most of the complaining and pointing fingers is by those that are doing nothing. I hear this and that, and see no proof of it. Then I hear some of the exhibition breeders say their birds lay these numbers or this, and a lot of times they are full of it. Sometimes not of course. Very few people track their egg numbers, and most think their birds lay more than they really do.

If a large dual purpose strain is laying 200-220 large and extra large eggs per year . . . they are doing pretty darn good. Especially that they are not in the controlled settings that would be had in a commercial flock or when they were doing those laying trials. You can tease a few more eggs from any strain by manipulating the environment. By them living through the absence of cold snaps and artificial day lengths, etc. . . . there is a measurable difference.

Egg size matters to. 200 extra large eggs is not as far off 240 medium large to large eggs as it would seam. I think that especially matters with large dual purpose birds. For me nothing is worse than a 7 - 7.5 lb hen that lays medium sized eggs. It bugs me.

So maybe I am in the middle. I want to breed my birds to a standard and preserve or improve breed character, but I desire to see them perform relatively well. I guess for me at this point, I am looking at the whole bird. I am not necessarily blinded by a single point or another. There is a lot to consider when the whole bird is considered.
I do care about longevity, breed type, color (I like nice birds), breed character, fertility, hatchability, vigor, production etc.

There are 3 or 4 points that could be improved to dramatically change the production status of the better examples of the pure breeds. Point of lay is a killer for a lot of them. With no selection we have many supposed to be production breeds that start laying at 32 weeks instead of the 24 that they should. That is 8wks of lost production in the pullet year. That is a lot of eggs. Another is when they molt, how fast they molt, and how quick they are to return laying after a molt. You can tease out another month's worth of eggs from these birds. Then egg size, and I will not repeat that. Also many of these lines are line bred as they should to make improvements and fix improvements. A simple outcross to a related strain can make a big difference.
If someone took a well bred strain and did nothing but improve on these points while they maintained quality, they could turn a 160 egg per year strain into 200-220 egg strain. This is a big project on its own. Getting passed that requires a large scale effort.
Personally I am thankful that are well bred birds to access to have the opportunity to work with.


If I was solely interested in developing an egg laying breed or strain, I would use the commercial hybrids as a genetic resource. We have access to genetics that were never accessible before. There is a lot around to work with. Could be worse and have nothing to work with.

The opportunities to work on a variety of projects is there. My main project now is Catalanas, and fortunately they produce pretty well already. We do count eggs, but I do not have a good feel for each individual. Because my boys help me keep track, etc. We can make mistakes. So my numbers are not scientific. The hens probably average between 200-220 eggs. More on the higher side. One hen in particular is more around the 240-250 range.
I have not had them long enough to really make any bold statements. It is just a trend that I am seeing. I am also not running lights on them, and I am getting some weird molting this winter. I do not know what to make of that yet. After another year, I will be able to provide more than an educated guess.
What encourages me is that I am starting in a pretty good place. If they are at 200-220 for the average bird, and an example or two that I higher . . . then if I can improve by 20 more in a few years . . .I would be happy with a 240 egg average from thee birds.

This is a long rambling post, but this is an interesting topic for me. With the variety of resources, we can enjoy a variety of projects. I would like to here and see numbers and results. Things people do and have done. Successes and failures. We have a hard time getting passed opinions. I do not care what the project is or what is started with. The challenge, the genetics, and the methods interest me. Whether it be hybrids, hatchery birds, standard bred birds, bantams etc . . . I do not care. I like them all.

 

[BGMatt]

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying one way or the other is right, just saying that you can't really have both extreme laying and great meat. I do breed to the Standard but I want my birds to be as productive as possible and still meet it. I do not find fault with anyone who breeds for production only. Sorry if it came across that way.

One thing I am very interested in is how some of you select breeders for meat qualities. I know how I do it but feel like I could do better in that regard, especially in increasing size. Let me outline what I do so I can get feedback and hopefully some tips.

How I select for meat: Given that rate of growth is very important since as the bird matures of course meat becomes tougher, my ideal butcher time frame is no later than 24 weeks. Beginning at 6-8 weeks (I can usually tell gender at this time or before), birds are separated by gender and I make my first cull, I take the smallest 25% (favoring physical size, not necessarily weight at this point, I'll switch this up around 16-20 weeks) and get rid of them, I mark the largest 10%. I repeat that every 3-4 weeks. At 24 weeks I again mark the top 105 and that combined with my other culling criteria gives me the birds to select my breeders from when I do final selections much later down the road. Over the years I have found a strong correlation between shank diameter and overall top size so I use that as a tie breaker. "Strong" heads also seem to be correlated.

 

[Manningjw]

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying one way or the other is right, just saying that you can't really have both extreme laying and great meat. I do breed to the Standard but I want my birds to be as productive as possible and still meet it. I do not find fault with anyone who breeds for production only. Sorry if it came across that way.

I don't care a whole heck of a lot about the meat value yet as I haven't been allowed to harvest my own birds (girlfriend wont allow it... she got too attached to my last Rooster I wanted to cull). If you read back, you will see I only referenced their egg production they used to be known for that I feel isn't quite up to standard anymore, even hatchery stock.

Australorps although labeled as a "dual purpose" breed don't get very large, even looking at breed SOP they don't have a whole heck of a lot of weight over a British SOP White Leghorn, they also don't put on weight very fast either compared to true meat birds. I doubt they were really ever that great for meat. I agree that you cannot have a chicken that is 100% the best at both. What i am after is the same thing that the original breeders of the Australorp were after, a great egg layer - and that includes winter months which the slightly heavier Australorps and Orpingtons were known to be. They also tend to have a temperament that is far more friendly than Leghorns as well. Not to knock Leghorns, I own one now and she is a great little bird but boy is she skittish. She produces a big white egg every morning on not much feed though, which is why I like her.

 

[gjensen]

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying one way or the other is right, just saying that you can't really have both extreme laying and great meat. I do breed to the Standard but I want my birds to be as productive as possible and still meet it. I do not find fault with anyone who breeds for production only. Sorry if it came across that way.

One thing I am very interested in is how some of you select breeders for meat qualities. I know how I do it but feel like I could do better in that regard, especially in increasing size. Let me outline what I do so I can get feedback and hopefully some tips.

How I select for meat: Given that rate of growth is very important since as the bird matures of course meat becomes tougher, my ideal butcher time frame is no later than 24 weeks. Beginning at 6-8 weeks (I can usually tell gender at this time or before), birds are separated by gender and I make my first cull, I take the smallest 25% (favoring physical size, not necessarily weight at this point, I'll switch this up around 16-20 weeks) and get rid of them, I mark the largest 10%. I repeat that every 3-4 weeks. At 24 weeks I again mark the top 105 and that combined with my other culling criteria gives me the birds to select my breeders from when I do final selections much later down the road. Over the years I have found a strong correlation between shank diameter and overall top size so I use that as a tie breaker. "Strong" heads also seem to be correlated.

Matt, it is hard for me to really say exactly what my plan will be concerning the Catalanas. For me, right now, there is so much to consider. Also I am still getting to know them. It looks like 12 wks is a good age for these assessments. They tend to mature pretty early. On the other hand, they are not fleshing out as a Catalana should, so it is a big deal to me make improvements on that point.

I am afraid that this year, like last year, I am going to have to take advantage of what they give me. Color is in such bad shape, that I have no choice but to consider it, even early. @ 8wks, I will definitely separate the under achievers. No question. I intend to process these. I can start to identify the extreme color problems at this point so I can separate some of those as well. @12 wks I will more formally assess them for weight, size, and fleshing. Again, I have to separate some color culls here as well.

Like you, I am looking at the heads, the backs, shank size, etc. The weights of course. What I like to do as much as anything is feel them. See what kind of thighs they have, qty of breast meat, and look at the depth of the keel bone. The back, breast,and thighs. I have come to the conclusion that how they flesh out is as important as when they flesh out.

Like anyone, I have to work with what I have and make decisions accordingly. I hope to be able to get to a point where I can be more religious about certain points in the near future. Right now I am afraid of losing this for the sake of that.

Catalanas remind me of NHs in a production model. They should be fleshed out pretty early, and traditionally they were also caponized. They have a good reputation for making quality capons, and they still do it in Spain. Mine come from Peru, and would say they were a little more towards a laying strain. I have a long ways to go.

You may have noticed that I had an exchange with someone on another thread. I was kind of challenging a position, but trying to tease out more information. What I got out of it, was the emphasis on measurable. Considering the value of different points in a quantitative way. I am still running that through my head. I like numbers because they do not lie. I would like to get to a point where I am charting individual points and having actual numbers and comparing them to a percentage value.
For a little dummy wannabe backyard breeder, it would give me something to look at over the winter. I might learn some things with actual numbers to look at. I do not trust my judgment concerning impressions. So often down the road, I discover that I had been wrong.

I can picture myself with a camera, a measuring tape, a scale, and a chart.

 

[call ducks]

So,

My line of sussex has had just as much selection into meat as eggs - I could have a nice fryer at 16 weeks if I really wanted (about 4lbs dressed).

Right now I am living at home and going to school - once I finish school this will allow me to track things better, and give me the time to do that. I am starting work on a new project production bird using old school production breeding methods.

gjensen - I have always said that hatcheries are not a terrible place to go for some initial stock - they may not fully represent a breed but more than likely that is only because they use all that they hatch for themselves.

A friend of mine is setting up a hatchery on of the smaller breeding wings will be able to house 3000 birds (when needed won't start at 3000 in one breed right away). If she wanted to select her 3000 best hens it would require a setting of ~15,000 eggs at one time. I belive (other) hatchery's just use what they can because a typical smaller incubator holds a bit more than 19000 eggs.

 

[hellbender]

I think we get off track when we discuss the production characteristics of pure breeds. We tend to withdraw to one side or the other and throw rocks, figuratively speaking.

It is a simple matter of economics. These birds were replaced by better performing and more efficient birds. It is that simple. All of our pure breeds were. They were left behind even when they were at their highest possible point concerning production.

The laying trials mentioned here taught us a lot concerning production genetics and methods etc. It is true that some specialized strains were developed to perform admirably well. These dual purpose birds ran into a dead end though. They were too large too be as efficient as the lighter layers that ate less, and produced as much or more. At the same time they were smaller than their counterparts, and not particularly good dual purpose birds.
These guys doing these selections had the resources and facilities to trap nest, raise thousands of birds, test a lot of males every year, and keep extensive records. No hobbyist could do that, less they are quite wealthy, and do not have to work. There is no profit in it now.
The golden years of pure breed production is gone. The commercial sector that selected these high achieving birds moved on to more efficient birds. It was never hobbyists that achieved these kinds of success. It takes too much.

Now these breeds are in the hands of hobbyists. The commercial sector has no interest in them. As hobbyist or hobby farmers or small farmers, we have to decide what we want in our birds. They are a belonging of ours and we do as we please. The genetic resources are still there to find or create a strain that more closely fits our personal ideals. If someone does not like the exhibition circle, which I have a hard time understanding, those birds are at least a genetic resource. A resource that would not be there if that hobby did not exist.
Heck the hatcheries can be a genetic resource, and for many breeds . . .they might not be here if not for the hatcheries. The hatcheries are not all bad either. Though I will add that many of the birds sold as one breed or another are hardly that breed at all anymore.

I get the disappointment in that many of the breeds we admire are not as productive as they should be. It is just not anyone's fault. There is no one to blame. If you do not use it, you lose it. And then it makes no economic sense to get to a large enough scale to get them to the extreme numbers again. If that made economic sense, and as motivating a money is, it would be getting done. Then you still are taking away the dual purpose qualities of the larger breeds to do it. It is an inevitable result of developing laying strains.

If someone is interested in developing a strain to be whatever it is they want it to be, then go for it. It would be a life long challenge, and maybe a rewarding challenge.

I cannot help but notice that most of the complaining and pointing fingers is by those that are doing nothing. I hear this and that, and see no proof of it. Then I hear some of the exhibition breeders say their birds lay these numbers or this, and a lot of times they are full of it. Sometimes not of course. Very few people track their egg numbers, and most think their birds lay more than they really do.

If a large dual purpose strain is laying 200-220 large and extra large eggs per year . . . they are doing pretty darn good. Especially that they are not in the controlled settings that would be had in a commercial flock or when they were doing those laying trials. You can tease a few more eggs from any strain by manipulating the environment. By them living through the absence of cold snaps and artificial day lengths, etc. . . . there is a measurable difference.

Egg size matters to. 200 extra large eggs is not as far off 240 medium large to large eggs as it would seam. I think that especially matters with large dual purpose birds. For me nothing is worse than a 7 - 7.5 lb hen that lays medium sized eggs. It bugs me.

So maybe I am in the middle. I want to breed my birds to a standard and preserve or improve breed character, but I desire to see them perform relatively well. I guess for me at this point, I am looking at the whole bird. I am not necessarily blinded by a single point or another. There is a lot to consider when the whole bird is considered.
I do care about longevity, breed type, color (I like nice birds), breed character, fertility, hatchability, vigor, production etc.

There are 3 or 4 points that could be improved to dramatically change the production status of the better examples of the pure breeds. Point of lay is a killer for a lot of them. With no selection we have many supposed to be production breeds that start laying at 32 weeks instead of the 24 that they should. That is 8wks of lost production in the pullet year. That is a lot of eggs. Another is when they molt, how fast they molt, and how quick they are to return laying after a molt. You can tease out another month's worth of eggs from these birds. Then egg size, and I will not repeat that. Also many of these lines are line bred as they should to make improvements and fix improvements. A simple outcross to a related strain can make a big difference.
If someone took a well bred strain and did nothing but improve on these points while they maintained quality, they could turn a 160 egg per year strain into 200-220 egg strain. This is a big project on its own. Getting passed that requires a large scale effort.
Personally I am thankful that are well bred birds to access to have the opportunity to work with.


If I was solely interested in developing an egg laying breed or strain, I would use the commercial hybrids as a genetic resource. We have access to genetics that were never accessible before. There is a lot around to work with. Could be worse and have nothing to work with.

The opportunities to work on a variety of projects is there. My main project now is Catalanas, and fortunately they produce pretty well already. We do count eggs, but I do not have a good feel for each individual. Because my boys help me keep track, etc. We can make mistakes. So my numbers are not scientific. The hens probably average between 200-220 eggs. More on the higher side. One hen in particular is more around the 240-250 range.
I have not had them long enough to really make any bold statements. It is just a trend that I am seeing. I am also not running lights on them, and I am getting some weird molting this winter. I do not know what to make of that yet. After another year, I will be able to provide more than an educated guess.
What encourages me is that I am starting in a pretty good place. If they are at 200-220 for the average bird, and an example or two that I higher . . . then if I can improve by 20 more in a few years . . .I would be happy with a 240 egg average from thee birds.

This is a long rambling post, but this is an interesting topic for me. With the variety of resources, we can enjoy a variety of projects. I would like to here and see numbers and results. Things people do and have done. Successes and failures. We have a hard time getting passed opinions. I do not care what the project is or what is started with. The challenge, the genetics, and the methods interest me. Whether it be hybrids, hatchery birds, standard bred birds, bantams etc . . . I do not care. I like them all.

On paper, I'm making money on my production flock...actually doing quite well. However, if one were to consider the salary that I do NOT take, even at minimum wage, I am seriously 'in-the-hole'.

This has been for a very long time, a glorified hobby that I love. If I can get half the enjoyment from our SOP efforts, I'll be as happy as a hog in mud...especially if my son really has fun with it.

 

[BGMatt]

On paper, I'm making money on my production flock...actually doing quite well.  However, if one were to consider the salary that I do NOT take, even at minimum wage, I am seriously 'in-the-hole'.  

This has been for a very long time, a glorified hobby that I love.  If I can get half the enjoyment from our SOP efforts, I'll be as happy as a hog in mud...especially if my son really has fun with it.

Amen! I expect my birds to be productive enough to at the very least pay for their own keep. The labor is a hobby. Someday it may be more and have a plan along that route, but I really think without extraordinary measures of luck involved it's doing ok to pay for themselves, most people's hobbies can't say the same.

 

[gjensen]

On paper, I'm making money on my production flock...actually doing quite well. However, if one were to consider the salary that I do NOT take, even at minimum wage, I am seriously 'in-the-hole'.

This has been for a very long time, a glorified hobby that I love. If I can get half the enjoyment from our SOP efforts, I'll be as happy as a hog in mud...especially if my son really has fun with it.

I get you, but I was referring to the facilities and commitment etc. that would be necessary to repeat what has been done concerning the more extreme numbers. Keeping 50-100 males was not that many.
And that it would make no financial sense because there is already birds that perform even better and more efficient. In the end you would just have what they have anyways, because an effort like that would just take us away from breed type and purpose. If pure breeds is the subject.
Certainly not saying it is not possible. Just that the economic incentive is not there like it was then.

 

[gjensen]

Amen! I expect my birds to be productive enough to at the very least pay for their own keep. The labor is a hobby. Someday it may be more and have a plan along that route, but I really think without extraordinary measures of luck involved it's doing ok to pay for themselves, most people's hobbies can't say the same.

If we could benefit from the reduced cost of feed like the big outfits, we could do better. I figure feed as around 80% of my output. I am always scheming on how to make improvements without sacrificing the quality of the ration.

As you know, volume and automation is key.

Around here to do any volume, you would have to go with the hybrids. Where I live, people are only going to pay so much for eggs. They do not care about rare, heritage, organic, free range, whatever. They care about what color the egg is, and how much they cost. There is exceptions. Just not enough of them. Can't compete with Wal-Mart here.

There is enough people that are interested in such to support a flock or two.