Calling all APA and/or ABA breeders!

[Hucklekree]

Hey everyone. I am enjoying this thread

I am not new to chickens but new to the world of breeding to standards. I have not signed up for membership yet but have the current Standard of Perfection.

All shows here have been cancelled indefinitely and I am nowhere near being ready to show my stock. Just started gathering my foundation.

I am interested in breeding to standard: Creveceours, Andalusian, Whiteface Black Spanish and Partridge Rocks.

I also procured some stock from the Holderreads in Oregon and have Saxony, Welsh Harlequin and Silver Appleyard ducks.

I have no idea if I will be successful any time soon but my kiddos are in it with me, hopefully 4h will start up soon and we can follow that avenue until shows are a thing again.

I used to go to the poultry shows to just enjoy the birds and get an idea. I started showing animals with sheep way back before kids.

 

[Amer]

Hey everyone. I am enjoying this thread

I am not new to chickens but new to the world of breeding to standards. I have not signed up for membership yet but have the current Standard of Perfection.

All shows here have been cancelled indefinitely and I am nowhere near being ready to show my stock. Just started gathering my foundation.

I am interested in breeding to standard: Creveceours, Andalusian, Whiteface Black Spanish and Partridge Rocks.

I also procurred some stock from the Holderreads in Oregon and have Saxony, Welsh Harlequin and Silver Appleyard ducks.

I have no idea if I will be successful anytime soon but my kiddos are in it with me, hopefully 4h will start up soon and we can follow thay avenue until shows are a thing again.

I used to go to the poultry shows to just enjoy the birds and get an idea. I started showing animals with sheep way back before kids.

Those are some unique old breeds! What a noble undertaking. It makes me sad that some of the breeds that were some of the most popular long ago have almost died out.
I have sheep too, just keeping a couple Babydoll wethers as pets. What breed did you show?

 

[Hucklekree]

Thanks, saddens me too. I purposefully tried to find breeds that were out of favor or needed more breeders. Don't know how successful I will be as I stated but I will try my best.

I LOVE babydolls! If there had been a breeder of them by me when I started sheep I would have gotten them. But as it was I had a flock of Romneys and loved every second. I become and still am friends with the farmers that provided the stock and helped them show theirs while J got the hang of my own flock. Sadly, I had to.make the choice to get out of sheep with the birth of my second kiddo because it was just too much with working fulltime, two kids under three and moving twice in a year. Where I am at now is too small a parcel to do sheep the way I'd like. I have been eyeing wethers lately though just to have those sweet animals around in some capacity.

 

[Amer]

Thanks, saddens me too. I purposefully tried to find breeds that were out of favor or needed more breeders. Don't know how successful I will be as I stated but I will try my best.

I LOVE babydolls! If there had been a breeder of them by me when I started sheep I would have gotten them. But as it was I had a flock of Romneys and loved every second. I become and still am friends with the farmers that provided the stock and helped them show theirs while J got the hang of my own flock. Sadly, I had to.make the choice to get out of sheep with the birth of my second kiddo because it was just too much with working fulltime, two kids under three and moving twice in a year. Where I am at now is too small a parcel to do sheep the way I'd like. I have been eyeing wethers lately though just to have those sweet animals around in some capacity.

It must have been very cool too show sheep. I can relate on the space issue. I only have an acre.

 

[FluffyBottomBantams]

This is a super casual curiosity question, didn't feel worthy of a new thread so hopefully its ok here.

If you are getting into breeding for the first time and want to breed to standard, how many birds do you start out with? Do you get just one breeding pair and go from there, multiple pairs, or something like several hens and one cock/cockerel? Do you only purchase from one breeder, or do you bring in birds from multiple lines/breeders?

I started with a pair of unrelated birds, and add in new genetics a couple generations later. I was lucky enough to start with birds that were already pretty good, the females so far don’t have the largest boots but the type is very nice on them, and I’m trying to breed out this rusty undertone that pops up sometimes. I breed Blue Belgian d’Uccles btw. My suggestion would be to contact whoever your getting your birds from and get as much info from them as possible. I’d also like to add that I’m fairly new to breeding, but not so much to showing or keeping chickens

 

[333113]

It’s traditional, I guess. The game fowl were dubbed once for cockfighting so they wouldn’t have something to grab onto, and it’s a tradition that’s never been changed. People who like OEG but don’t want to dub might breed a female line and only show the females.

Unfortunately, I think that the tradition of dubbing has limited the number of people who want to raise any of the games. They are already becoming rare in some areas

In the past few years attending shows, I very seldom saw anything but females or cockerels. Both the ABA and the APA standards require a five-pointed comb for males, dubbed before November of the year they were hatched. So, if you are looking at a dubbed male, you won't know whether his comb meets the standard five points.

Amer is right. Dubbing is traditional because of cock fighting, which is illegal almost everywhere in this country. So, for me, it's difficult to understand why we would restrict the showing of males unless they are dubbed, prepared to fight.

A lot of 4-H and junior bird raisers can't or won't get into raising a bird that must be dubbed to show. They can't always find adult leadership and guidance, let alone family support, for the dubbing part. For those who don't know, dubbing means cutting off the bird's comb and wattles, and the standard specifies exactly how much of the comb and wattles can remain.

I am a life member of the APA and a long-time member of the ABA, and I regularly ask both organizations to accept both traditional dubbed and non-dubbed cocks for judging. I show Nankins, which come in two comb types, straight and rose comb, described in the standard. How difficult could it be to modify the game standard to include non-dubbed birds?

And, on a slightly different topic, in my opinion, raising separate female and male lines to show is goofy in any breed, because then you are raising two strains of the same breed, which is pretty much all the same work as raising two breeds. But then you can't breed both lines together and get consistently good birds. I know people who do it, but I don't buy birds from them. Most of them can't resist the temptation to mix in a different breed, with predictably wonky results down the road.

I myself do keep several strains of Crevecoeurs, because years ago I recognized they were rare and I might have difficulty finding good stock to outcross for hybrid vigor.

 

[Amer]

Unfortunately, I think that the tradition of dubbing has limited the number of people who want to raise any of the games. They are already becoming rare in some areas

In the past few years attending shows, I very seldom saw anything but females or cockerels. Both the ABA and the APA standards require a five-pointed comb for males, dubbed before November of the year they were hatched. So, if you are looking at a dubbed male, you won't know whether his comb meets the standard five points.

Amer is right. Dubbing is traditional because of cock fighting, which is illegal almost everywhere in this country. So, for me, it's difficult to understand why we would restrict the showing of males unless they are dubbed, prepared to fight.

A lot of 4-H and junior bird raisers can't or won't get into raising a bird that must be dubbed to show. They can't always find adult leadership and guidance, let alone family support, for the dubbing part. For those who don't know, dubbing means cutting off the bird's comb and wattles, and the standard specifies exactly how much of the comb and wattles can remain.

I am a life member of the APA and a long-time member of the ABA, and I regularly ask both organizations to accept both traditional dubbed and non-dubbed cocks for judging. I show Nankins, which come in two comb types, straight and rose comb, described in the standard. How difficult could it be to modify the game standard to include non-dubbed birds?

And, on a slightly different topic, in my opinion, raising separate female and male lines to show is goofy in any breed, because then you are raising two strains of the same breed, which is pretty much all the same work as raising two breeds. But then you can't breed both lines together and get consistently good birds. I know people who do it, but I don't buy birds from them. Most of them can't resist the temptation to mix in a different breed, with predictably wonky results down the road.

I myself do keep several strains of Crevecoeurs, because years ago I recognized they were rare and I might have difficulty finding good stock to outcross for hybrid vigor.

I think the APA isn't really in control of the game standard. The breeders are. They think the dubbed combs look neater and more gamey. If it was changed then the people who dubbed them would have either have to breed to adapt to the revision or face the fact that a judge might pick an undubbed bird over theirs because of a personal preference. Having two different combs would just reap inconsistency in the breed.
You're completely right about the incorrect combs, lol, I can totally imagine what they looked like before they were dubbed.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think the breeders would never let that happen. OEGB breeders are very set in their ways.

Interesting you don't have many game breeders by you. OEGB and MGB breeders are probably the most common bantams I see in shows. The LF are definitely very rare though.

 

[333113]

I think the APA isn't really in control of the game standard. The breeders are. They think the dubbed combs look neater and more gamey. If it was changed then the people who dubbed them would have either have to breed to adapt to the revision or face the fact that a judge might pick an undubbed bird over theirs because of a personal preference. Having two different combs would just reap inconsistency in the breed.
You're completely right about the incorrect combs, lol, I can totally imagine what they looked like before they were dubbed.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think the breeders would never let that happen. OEGB breeders are very set in their ways.

Interesting you don't have many game breeders by you. OEGB and MGB breeders are probably the most common bantams I see in shows. The LF are definitely very rare though.

I spent some time talking with the breeder who won best of show with his buff bantam game hen a couple of years ago. He said it's too much trouble to show males, and a lot easier to win with a female, due to judges being fussy about dubbing and the cocks' tendency to break feathers. A lot of the breeders of games are very competitive about winning. They are not so interested in preserving a breed. This breeder took time to talk to me because he was interested in my Nankins for crossbreeding to bring a little more red into his line.

You are so right about the standard size game fowl. I don't see them much at all.

I think the bantams are popular because they are so small, you can easily raise them in even a garage or basement, as many have told me they do. In that sort of climate-controlled environment, it's a lot easier to keep birds looking pretty for shows. And it's easier to transport them to and from shows, too. It also opens up the possibility of more people raising winners even in the city or suburbs.

I myself have three acres, no garage, no basement, just a pole barn and runs, and weather that pours rain as soon as I wash my birds for show!

 

[FluffyBottomBantams]

]

Interesting you don't have many game breeders by you. OEGB and MGB breeders are probably the most common bantams I see in shows. The LF are definitely very rare though.

I agree! Around here there are a lot of bantam Wyandottes and silkies too. And so.many.call.ducks.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I do think most straight-combed birds look better undubbed. I have seen some American gamefowl that were mixed with Oriental gamefowl with some ugly combs and I would say those birds looked better dubbed, and dubbed properly down to the skin and not the mohawk-type dub the show standards call for.